Revealing the Real

[JonathanR]

Even better than this!!

Explain in your own words this shift, as if explaining to someone who has never before heard of no self, so that they might "see".

Thank you

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Explain in your own words this shift, as if explaining to someone who has never before heard of no self, so that they might "see".

Explaining my experience of no self to someone will only become a concept to them. The only way someone might “see” is to look and directly experience for themselves that there is no separate “self”. However, I will explain as asked.

There is no self separate from life, life is just expressing itself through a body/mind apparatus. The felt sense of a “me” is an illusion constructed from thoughts, emotions, and body sensations. There is identification with a belief that “I” am a separate individual in control of “my” life. The “I” “me” or “mine” is a label, a thought, a point of reference. In reality, a separate person doesn’t actually exist.

During the inquiry, using the “Direct Pointing” method with an LU guide, a separate “self”, a “me”, or an “I”, that sees, hears, makes decisions, and has control was looked for experientially without referring to thoughts. No such separate entity could be found whether it be labeled “separate self”, “me”, “I” or “no self”. At times, what was found were various combinations of two or more of the following experiences: joy, fluidity, lightness and airiness, borderlessness, clear space, spaciousness, and/or peace.

After inquiry with an LU guide, I still get triggered, have “I” thoughts, and may identify with the “I” as before, but now there’s more awareness of it and it’s not taken so seriously. Also, now when “I” thoughts arise or when triggered, I am more inclined to look experientially for the “I” or for “what” it is that is being triggered. As I am writing this, I hear the loud sounds of the neighbors’ children playing with a ball outside my window. I feel triggered and feel irritated. I stop and look for who or what is being triggered. When I look experientially and not with the intellect, there’s a relaxation, a letting go, and a sense of peace and calm.

Your answers to the six questions were fine. "Textbook" answers, if there were a textbook of "right answers" to this inquiry, (which there should not be).

I also need to ask you about whether you really did manage to put aside your strong interest in the Fetters inquiry in order to investigate "self" properly?

Given your prior involvement with Fetters and Pernille it could easily be that you had already identified with an idea of being "at" Fetter 5 (for example) or Fetter 9 , or any of the others prior to being advised to go back to fetter 1?

It could easily be that you had detailed prior intellectual knowledge of various "stages" and how they are described so that it was easy to see what the "right answers" should be?

I'm concerned that there could be impatience to get shot of the LU inquiry as soon as possible in order to get back to a perceived higher level?

Tell me if that is or is not true and feel free to explain why?

These are real concerns. We guide here to assist people to properly succeed in their non-dual inquiry and not to rush someone through.

What I need from you now is for you to tell me very much in your own words what is the same as before this inquiry, what is different? And do it at some length so that I'm left in no doubt.

I’d like to start out by saying that I greatly appreciate your sincerity, diligence, conscientiousness, dedication, and commitment to making sure the desired outcome to see without a doubt that there is no separate “self” and never was, is achieved.

I was surprised to see that our inquiries were coming to an end in such a short period of time as compared to other participants.

I take my spiritual growth seriously and of the utmost importance. I would not knowingly do anything to jeopardize it.
I have nothing to gain and will only cheat myself by rushing through the inquiries with LU. There’s no rush and I can only benefit from experiencing more inquiry if need be. In fact, after completing my inquiry with you, I was going to read the Gate Crashers, read some LU archives, watch some LU YouTube videos, and finish the Liberation Unleashed I started nine months ago which I only read halfway through. I can see that impatience will get me nowhere.

I am glad you are posing these questions as it lends to the possibility of discovering any unseen obstacles.

Twenty years ago at the age of forty-one, I had never heard of awakening or no self. I had no spiritual background, or knowledge of non–duality, Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, or the like. I started having biweekly vivid mystical dreams over a three-month period. Then after that, I had a 180-degree shift in the way life was experienced which lasted three days during which I continuously felt great peace, stillness, and contentment, had little to no thoughts, and was totally free of physical pain. Where before I was anxious, fearful, with a lot of mental chatter, and in extreme physical pain from a work-related injury that I still have to this day. After this three-day period, I had mystical experiences such as seeing lights around people, seeing the aliveness and vibrant colors within nature, and having intermittent feelings of great peace, stillness, and contentment, with little to no thoughts, all of which lasted for a period of two years.

In August of last year, I bought the book “Liberation Unleashed“ when I first heard an interview with Angelo Dilullo who mentioned it. I immediately read half the book then put it aside and then continued to watch various types of spiritual YouTube videos. Prior to that, I had limited knowledge about how to do inquiry other than asking myself the question, “Who am I”. The few times I attempted this, it only yielded answers from the intellect such as: I am this body, I am my thoughts, I am a person who has had these experiences, is this age, this gender, and lives in this particular country.

A couple of months ago, I looked experientially for “what” is aware of the thoughts without referring to thoughts for an answer. I don’t recall hearing what to expect to find or what the experience would be. So, I gave it a try and couldn’t find an entity of sorts but momentarily felt a vastness and sense of peace. I tried this a second time with similar results. I had intended to do this whenever a thought with “I” arose however, I tried it a couple of times only to find myself thinking I knew what to expect and quickly lost interest and put the inquiry practice aside.

I had recently started watching Angelo Dillulos’ YouTube channel, “Simply Always Awake” and heard an interview he gave with Pernille Damore who teaches Fetter Work. I looked on her website and had seen that she highly recommended working with a guide from Liberation Unleashed, and recommended attending Zoom meetings with Vince Schubert. So, on April 3rd I signed up for an LU guide, and e-mailed Vince. While waiting for an LU guide, I attended two Zoom meetings with Vince and started Fetter Work with Pernille by watching only one video on her YouTube Channel, that covered Fetter 1.

I never completed nor went further than Fetter 1 of Pernilles‘ curriculum and only viewed one video on it prior to starting the inquiry with LU. I managed to place all spiritual systems including the Fetter Work aside while doing the inquiry with LU.

I have a tendency of jumping around and watching videos of different teachers, not sticking with just one, and really looked forward to putting aside all spiritual endeavors so I could focus exclusively on my inquiries with LU. I find structure to be very helpful.

I’ve never heard people express their personal experiences of various “stages”. The answers I gave were short and succinct in order to stay with my direct experience and not risk answering from the intellect.

I believe all spiritual endeavors I undertake are valuable and non-linear, so there is no perceived higher or lower level.

After inquiry with LU, I still get triggered, have “I” thoughts, and may identify with the “I” as before, but now there’s more awareness of it and it’s not taken so seriously. Also, now when “I” thoughts arise or when triggered, I am more inclined to look experientially for the “I” or for “what” it is that is being triggered.

All the best and much gratitude,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Dear Dariel

I appreciate your reply very much. As occasionally happens I am a little bit tired this evening to properly reply, so I will, if you don't mind, reply tomorrow. But I very much appreciate what you've said.

thank you!

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Dariel

I'm just waiting for some guides to take a look at our conversation. They might have further questions so let's see. I will be in touch soon.

All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

You said

„I was surprised to see that our inquiries were coming to an end in such a short period of time as compared to other participants.“

A guide asks:

Why were you surprised when you were asked to answer the final questions?

Is anything missing or are there doubts? [/quote]

Should the inquiry have taken longer?

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Why were you surprised when you were asked to answer the final questions?
Is anything missing or are there doubts?
Should the inquiry have taken longer?

That surprise was based exclusively on the quantity/number of inquiry sessions and not on the quality/achieving the desired outcome. Again, I was just comparing the number of sessions I had to the number of sessions others have had.

There is nothing missing and there are no doubts. The inquiry will take whatever time it takes to reach the desired outcome of seeing and realizing without a doubt that there is no separate “self” and never was. So no, the inquiry shouldn’t have taken longer.

Thank you for your thoroughness.
All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hi Dariel

Thanks for your quick reply

. I was just comparing the number of sessions I had to the number of sessions others have had.

Did you do a lot of comparing to arrive at this deduction?

What is the purpose in this comparing?


Another guide is asking:

. "I take my spiritual growth seriously."

How does this sit with what has been found during this inquiry here?

What grows?

What is spiritual about it?

Why does it need to be taken seriously and by whom?


Thank you

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

“I was just comparing the number of sessions I had to the number of sessions others have had.”
Did you do a lot of comparing to arrive at this deduction?
What is the purpose in this comparing?

When registering on the LU site for a guide, in order to see how the forum worked, 2 or 3 participants’ threads were glanced at. It is now seen how this could have set up a hidden expectation of the number of sessions needed for inquiry completion.

Another guide is asking:

"I take my spiritual growth seriously."
How does this sit with what has been found during this inquiry here?

There is no separate “I” or “my” so these are just words to reference this body/mind apparatus labeled “Dariel” and the non-separate mystery that is expressed through it. This can just as easily be written, “Spiritual growth is seemingly being taken seriously”. Regardless of the words used, it has been realized that there is no separate self or entity in the body/mind apparatus named Dariel. The words “I” and “my” can be used purely as a means of reference and do not need to be identified with as a separate entity.

What grows?

That remains a mystery. It can’t be a separate self that grows because, there isn’t one.

What is spiritual about it?

If by “it” you mean the “I” and “my” as a separate self, there is nothing spiritual about “it” because a separate self does not exist.

Why does it need to be taken seriously and by whom?

Wanting “to assist people to properly succeed in their non-dual inquiry and not to rush someone through” the LU guide had concerns that the answers might not be from direct experience but rather from “prior intellectual knowledge” and that “impatience” and wanting to “get shot of the LU inquiry as soon as possible” were at play here. The LU guide posted, “Tell me if that is or is not true and feel free to explain why?”

The sentence "I take my spiritual growth seriously." was part of the response given. The definition used for “seriously” is “earnest intent; sincerely” where sincerely is defined as - free from pretense or deceit; proceeding from genuine feelings.

The word seriously was used specifically for the meaning “free from pretense or deceit” as this best described the authenticity from which the inquiry questions were answered and by which the commitment to the inquiry process was carried out.

In order to properly succeed in the non-dual inquiry and not rush through it, being free from pretense or deceit (aka seriously) is needed, and not by a separate self as one doesn’t exist.

To reiterate – There is no separate self or separate entity and there never was one. The words “I” and "my" are labels to reference this body/mind apparatus that is animated by a mystery that is not a separate entity.

Thank you,
All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

Thanks for your reply.

. When registering on the LU site for a guide, in order to see how the forum worked, 2 or 3 participants’ threads were glanced at. It is now seen how this could have set up a hidden expectation of the number of sessions needed for inquiry completion.

Yes that is a possibility. Conversations at LU can be very short, somewhat longer, quite long or very long.

. If by “it” you mean the “I” and “my” as a separate self, there is nothing spiritual about “it” because a separate self does not exist.

Is there anything spiritual about no self? If so what and how?

All the best

Jon

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Is there anything spiritual about no self? If so what and how?

No, it’s just the way things are in reality. There is no separate entity.

Reality is defined as - the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Thank you,
All the best,
Dariel

[JonathanR]

Hello Dariel

Thank you for your answers, again.

You have told me (us) that no self is seen. You've said this clearly several times and offered various clarifications when we asked questions. Thank you.

Your answers were somewhat textbook or even AI in feel , so much so that it made it very tricky for me to know if you were intellectualising throughout or if a true shift to "seeing" was happening. Either of these seems possible but it is not for me to tell you what your experience is or is not.

It simply remains for me to wish you the very best.

You may have noticed that your name has turned blue?
Your thread will also be moved to the Archive section of LU.

If you have further questions, or wish to speak with me in future just get in touch.

Best wishes

Jon .

[AlreadySo]

Hello Jon,

Thank you, Jon. I sincerely appreciate all your time, effort, and conscientiousness.

All the Best,
Dariel