Hopeful for liberation

[pozablo]

jms2,

How are you?

What's happening?

[jms2]

Hi Pablo!

I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you! I will finish my response to your post in a few hours. I should have let you know before that it was a busy few days, that’s my bad! Things have been hectic these past few days as school has started up again and other life events, but there will be time tonight.

Best,
Soley

[pozablo]

No problem at all, and no rush!
I'm happy that you are still interested.

So just do what needs to be done re school and other life demands, and I look forward to hearing from you.

/p

[jms2]

Hi Pablo!

What is the need for the concept of a consciousness in which experiences occur, if there is only experience? It seems to me that concept of consciousness separate from experience just adds confusion.

These past few days, i have been remembering , experience and consciousness are the same thing and sometimes the feeling is immediate but most of the time it is conceptual.

Have you heard of "the hard problem"? That's what neuroscientists and philosophers of science call experience. How does measurable neuron activity result in experience? What is even the function of experiences? Why do they exist?

Experience is the only thing that exists, why does it exist? None of those questions are answerable!

Re doubts, what effect does believing they are real and important have on a person's life?
How do they affect focus and action on the things that are most satisfying and congruent with your values?

Believing doubts are real can have a freezing effect on a persons life. If believing doubts is on, then there is so much more resistance to the focus and action in things most important to that person. Instead of taking action, there will seem to be a series of emotional and physical hurdles to get over before what you really want to do can happen. They take focus away from what the intended focus is, and instead the focus ends up on the doubts.

Re the feeling of self, is it in any way similar to the feeling of one event causing another, when in fact they are unrelated?
In what way might it be like like a child in one of those car-seats with a pretend steering wheel who believes they are responsible for the car's movements? And, if that belief is erroneous, what are the implications for how to live in the moment rather than in past/future?

Yes those two events seem similar. Both the child and the person think they are in control, the child who drives the car, and the feeling of self which drives the experience. But both are mistaken, it just seems that way.

Because the belief is erroneous, to live in the moment rather than in the past or the future seems like it means to live in what is real, which doesn’t include either the past or the future, because those things require a self.

This sense of self seems lesser every time I look in private. But it comes up very strongly when I am with other people, sometimes even anxiety (a lot of sharp, heavy, tight body sensations). Putting the thoughts in the garbage helps when remembered, but ultimately hyper awareness of the people around seem to maybe make it hard to see that the self isn’t there. Not when the body reacts so strongly to thoughts about other apparent selves.

Please look carefully now...What remains that still seems to be the responsibility of the self?

The self doesn’t seem to have any responsibilities because it doesn’t do anything to begin with, it isn’t anywhere except in long collection of memories and thoughts. The mind and the body do things but there is nobody choosing what is done, what happens is just what is happening. So no responsibility for the self, only experience happening.

Please carefully watch the actual experience called "releasing it".
Also, what is in experience between thoughts? Please describe in some detail.

It's less like releasing and more like just thoughts fading away into nothing or another thought. The experience of “releasing” feels more like the intention to let go of control than anything else, but it’s funny because there isn’t like there is control to let go of, it’s just the experience of stress alleviating.

Between thoughts there is experience of things other than thoughts. Like when there are no thoughts there is just seeing and hearing, tasting, walking, back pain and other sensations in the body, etc.

If you wish, I could make just the exercises available separately.

Yes please! I’ve been wanting to go back to the exercises, but the link doesn’t have access anymore I think.

PS would you like to try a Zoom or Skype meeting?

Yes! I’m sorry again about not being able to respond as quickly as before this past week. I expect the next week and a half to be about the same as I’ll be on a field trip in the countryside and I’m not sure about my internet connection. Maybe we can do this meeting a few weeks from now?

I look forward to hearing from you!

Jms2

[pozablo]

Dear Soley, good to hear from you!
May your field trip be peaceful, engaging, and satisfying.

But it comes up very strongly when I am with other people, sometimes even anxiety (a lot of sharp, heavy, tight body sensations). Putting the thoughts in the garbage helps when remembered, but ultimately hyper awareness of the people around seem to maybe make it hard to see that the self isn’t there. Not when the body reacts so strongly to thoughts about other apparent selves.

Funny, I hadn’t thought of the putting thoughts in the garbage as a literal coping skill, and would love to hear more about what that’s like for you.

Putting on my therapist hat, try this when you are or will be around other people: Practice focus on wishing them happiness and well-being.

The mind and the body do things but there is nobody choosing what is done, what happens is just what is happening. So no responsibility for the self, only experience happening.

Can it be ok that sometimes what is happening is the mind producing a feeling of self?
Or producing doubts?
Can those be there, along with everything else in your field of experience at any given time, and be known for what they are?
When they are truly seen and known what they are, might it actually be kind of amusing that they still show up?

The experience of “releasing” feels more like the intention to let go of control than anything else, but it’s funny because there isn’t like there is control to let go of, it’s just the experience of stress alleviating.

Does that intention just arise like everything else?
Some intentions certainly seem to result in more peace of mind and loving-kindness than others.
For me, the more time spent intentionally allowing and seeing what happens in the Now when there is no trying to control (kind of a meditation, I guess), the higher is the quality of my life when attention focuses on things that need to be done.

Between thoughts there is experience of things other than thoughts. Like when there are no thoughts there is just seeing and hearing, tasting, walking, back pain and other sensations in the body, etc

Are you familiar with what Buddha reputedly said when somebody asked him to state concisely what is liberation? He said something like “In reference to the seen, only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the felt, only the felt. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.”
Interesting that he mentioned “the cognized”, which I assume means thought but am not sure.
For you, has it yet happened that sometimes thoughts and hearing, tasting, walking, back pain, sensations , etc. are all just different kinds of stuff happening and coming and going and changing in the same field of awareness?

Because the belief is erroneous, to live in the moment rather than in the past or the future seems like it means to live in what is real, which doesn’t include either the past or the future, because those things require a self.

Do memories of the past, or imaginings of the future, require a self?
Can there be learning through examination of past experience, and more skillful living through consideration of possible outcomes of various actions, without belief in a self that is doing these?

I’ve been wanting to go back to the exercises, but the link doesn’t have access anymore I think.

OK, I’m making a few minor changes to them, but if you don’t get a link from me in the next week or so, please remind me.


PS would you like to try a Zoom or Skype meeting?

Yes! I’m sorry again about not being able to respond as quickly as before this past week. I expect the next week and a half to be about the same as I’ll be on a field trip in the countryside and I’m not sure about my internet connection. Maybe we can do this meeting a few weeks from now?

Absolutely, whenever is good for you. My time is very flexible, and a virtual in-person might be really helpful.

/p

[pozablo]

Soley,
Here are the modified exercises.
https://360.articulate.com/review/conte ... 10a/review

I'm here whenever you are available.

/p

[pozablo]

Soley, how are you?

If life has become to busy for you to continue at this time, no problema, please just let me know.
And even if that is so, I'd still love to know how you are doing!

/p

[jms2]

Hi Pablo,
I’m so sorry for not responding to your last message back in August! It was inconsiderate of me. Last autumn there was a lot of tumultuous activity happening in my personal life regarding separation from my ex partner and initiating the divorce process, There was a lot of pain and suffering. My attention was split away from liberation momentarily, but back in December 2022 I returned and have been practicing inquiry nearly everyday since on my own. I’m writing you again here to ask if you might still be interested in chatting with me. To be completely honest, I think I was afraid of talking to you over the phone or in a video call because I doubted myself and my experience. However, I won’t disappear without notice again!

I will just write a bit of an update here in case you are still available and willing to work with me. There have been several moments of clarity in the past few months that have felt both extremely grounding and expansive. These moments of clarity are experiential in that it is suddenly extremely clear that there is no entity here occupying the mind or the body. In these moments the sensations of sitting in bed are just some pressure in space, the visual field is at zero distance, sound is at zero distance, and everything just is what it is. When there are thoughts referring to the future/ the past of me then it feels immediately incoherent and silly. Honestly, the biggest things about this is the absolute silliness of everything. Everything just feels so silly, no other word fits the description of experience better than that.

What I worry about is some kind of spiritual bypassing and the ever present doubt. There is no doubt that the glimpses are real, actually a lot of information that had been collected over the years about awakening kind of clicked after the past several glimpses, especially about the intimacy of experience and the lack of experiencer separate from the experience. However, when the glimpses occur it is not short after that thoughts come in “is this awakening?” “This must be it” or my heart starts racing so uncontrollably during the glimpse that the whole body shakes and it feels like I could have a heart attack. I mention spiritual bypassing because sometimes it feels during inquiry that the thoughtless space is just regarded as “oh yeah, there’s nothing here just this on and on” and once the thought “it’s just this” comes up the inquiry kind of stops dead in its tracks.

Anyways I hope you’re doing well, and I hope to hear back from you!

Best regards,
Soley

[pozablo]

Thank you Soley.
What an extremely challenging year it has been for you.

I'd be honored to be of assistance. And I love your notion of silliness!! That's exactly how it is for me.
When unobserved, I frequently laugh out loud at the local news, commentaries and editorials passing through this brain.

I hear your doubts.
They are almost extinct here, but will almost certainly show up again.
Nobody doubting, just doubts which are sometimes accompanied by a mild feeling of anxiety.
Then the question pops up "Can anything right now possibly be different from the way it is right now?" and there is almost immediately a relaxation of previously unnoticed tension. so nice.

Everything is just what it is

Would you be up for a Skype/Zoom?
If so, would you want to throw out some times, if any, that you might be available for that?
I'm now on the east coast of the U.S.

If that wouldn't work for you, please let me know and I'll ask clarifying questions about your doubts and "is this awakening" and heart racing and I'll stay with you as far as you want to go.

Warmly,
Pablo

[jms2]

Hi Pablo,

I’m grateful you’re still available to talk to, thank you! I have been quite sick for the past few days and I am in the middle of my final exams and finishing research for my undergraduate thesis. I will be available to Skype or zoom in June! Until then, maybe we could chat here?

It seems very obvious most of the time that there is no separate person here that has dreams, goals, ideas, makes choices, has a personality, etc. Lately, emotions have been pretty stable. There is not any intense joy or sadness, anger or fear, excitement, etc. There is little to no stress about the future and little to no anxiety about the past. However, there is concern that dissociation is occurring rather than liberation from the self. I can’t remember how feeling self-bound truly felt and how it colored experience differently from what is happening now. I see the hands typing these words on the keyboard and it doesn’t feel like there is somebody doing it and yet I can’t imagine another way typing could be experienced where it could feel like somebody was doing it. I don’t know is this makes sense. The doubt here is this thought that Im not seeing no self but am deluding myself into thinking I am. Do you suggest anything to help clarify the difference between the two?

Best,
Soley

[pozablo]

other than different, and worries about dissociation aside, how does it feel? how is your brain functioning on the things important to you? how are your relationships compared with before?

[jms2]

other than different, and worries about dissociation aside, how does it feel? how is your brain functioning on the things important to you? how are your relationships compared with before?

It’s hard to discern what is important to me besides family, my SO, friends and liberation. Things that were important to me like beauty, getting into a prestigious masters program, appearing clever etc. feel so silly. There’s a big difference now since everything seems so silly, it just doesn’t seem like anything could be very important at all. I’m struggling with caring about a career or the future in general.

Emotions are felt directly in the body and in a different way. The pity party in the mind has calmed down a lot. For example, I have been quite sick with a stomach bug for the past few days but it’s been ok. I’m in the middle of finals season at school and am finishing up writing on a thesis so this sickness could not have come at a worse time technically but still it feels ok and there isn’t any overlay of anxiety.

I still care about those around me and I wish them happiness, but a lot of my relationships have become tricky actually. Like friends at university. They are kind people and I used to enjoy spending time with them a lot but it feels like there isn’t much I have to say and when I do say things they feel so exaggerated to how I actually feel about the situation that it feels wrong. In conversations with friends I tend to say what I think they want to me say, kind of perpetuating the drama of whatever situation is being discussed because I think I am being accommodating but it feels forced. It’s so hard to respond to a complaint about the weather/ a grade on an exam/ petty arguments between two friends, etc. and sound genuinely invested in the drama. I’ve been alone more often in recent months. However, connecting with very close friends and family has felt more intimate in a way. The people with whom I don’t exaggerate.

[pozablo]

Then, from a professional POV, I can assure you that bears none of the signs of dissociation.
You are fortunate to already have people with whom you can have the kinds of conversations that are now rich and meaningful.

Re career, education, or anything else, I would advise just trust your logic and evidence that there is no you who could do anything about it anyway, and see what you do (are doing) at any given moment. From that vantage, your body/mind whatchamaycallit has the best overview from which to see options. That trust is the most smiley part of freedom for me.

You'll still see it making mistakes, but it'll learn.
Sometimes there will be pain, but just trust and allow and it will resolve.
How much time depends, of course, on how big the blow.
But worrying and avoiding and pushing away will never do anything but prolong the suffering that is just part of loving and living.

Wow. That's the most I've ever said about that.
Make sense?

Have you ever heard of "Circling"?

[jms2]

Then, from a professional POV, I can assure you that bears none of the signs of dissociation.
You are fortunate to already have people with whom you can have the kinds of conversations that are now rich and meaningful.

Okay that is good to hear.

Re career, education, or anything else, I would advise just trust your logic and evidence that there is no you who could do anything about it anyway, and see what you do (are doing) at any given moment. From that vantage, your body/mind whatchamaycallit has the best overview from which to see options. That trust is the most smiley part of freedom for me.

That does seem like the only way.

You'll still see it making mistakes, but it'll learn.
Sometimes there will be pain, but just trust and allow and it will resolve.
How much time depends, of course, on how big the blow.
But worrying and avoiding and pushing away will never do anything but prolong the suffering that is just part of loving and living.

Wow. That's the most I've ever said about that.
Make sense?

I think I understand. The self is just conditioning and the conditioning continues unless it is unconditioned. Awareness that it isn’t real doesn’t mean that every behavior and thought will change automatically. Do you mean to lean into pain?

Have you ever heard of "Circling"?

No, what is that?

[pozablo]

The self is just conditioning and the conditioning continues unless it is unconditioned.

Please explain. What is this "self" that is conditioning and continues?
I honestly do not understand what you are saying.
Can you explain as completely as possible so that I can?

Awareness that it isn’t real doesn’t mean that every behavior and thought will change automatically.

Same thing. What do you mean by awareness? What do you mean by "real" (or not real).

/p