Simple not Simple

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

Something” meaning a thought based reaction? rather than just descriptive sensing?

It may no longer be the original story that we are responding to. It may have become hard wired and the original story no longer retained.

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

It may no longer be the original story that we are responding to. It may have become hard wired and the original story no longer retained.

Yes if thought has no content neither do memories… so the hard wiring is from the body sensations… like how once you can play piano it’s automatic responses or driving of a car?There is nothing storing information it’s more responses that the body can do with dexterity ( or not)in the immediate. If every”thing” is experiencing then can experiences repeat or only have a familiarity to it because of misaligned or confused concepts about sensing? I realised there was a belief that “curiosity killed the cat “.I wanted to ask are thoughts 99.1% rubbish?🙂

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

if thought has no content neither do memories…

Ok, we are getting down to a more subtle level here. Thought does have content.. well no it doesn't. This is tricky. I'll just babble for a bit and we'll see what comes out of it.
The carrier is the content. The content is the carrier.
What the thought is about can only be experienced as another thought. (this isn't true either), but what we believe about the thought is what we respond to.
Just as a sensation contains no information, a thought is only information.

.I wanted to ask are thoughts 99.1% rubbish?

The word rubbish only works at a social/cultural level. It is much more relevant to say that 99% of thoughts are not useful. Check for yourself.
This brings us to direct exposure to the fallacy of choice/decisions/control.

like how once you can play piano it’s automatic responses or driving of a car?

Once you experience these things happening automatically, you can begin to recognize that everything just happens according to an infinite number of supporting conditions (circumstances)

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

The carrier is the content. The content is the carrier.
What the thought is about can only be experienced as another thought. (this isn't true either), but what we believe about the thought is what we respond to.
Just as a sensation contains no information, a thought is only information.

So by using the word carrier meaning the thought or sensation is the carrier,the content or information about the thought or sensation is not important,therefore being described as "contentless" but experienced ?So the belief about a thought,the belief also being another thought but the thought seems to be more locked in...so the belief was either attached to a body sensation or is taken to be a fact ,like a habit? A conditioned response?So does the initial thought that was taken as fact or attached to a body sensation have to found or can we just allow body sensations with the alertness that there is a belief/thought somehow attached to it without having to know or search for an answer?Like I discovered a belief that curiousity could kill you and today I discovered a believe that "God"or "The otherness" was angry and was causing suffering just to cause harm and as punishment.Those belief thoughts occur with out intentionally searching for them sometimes from some written words or a body sensation arising after hearing something or reading something etc.

The word rubbish only works at a social/cultural level. It is much more relevant to say that 99% of thoughts are not useful. Check for yourself.
This brings us to direct exposure to the fallacy of choice/decisions/control.

Yes I was only joking when I said 99.1 % because you say frequesntly 99% of thoughts are rubbiish but your response was quite useful.

Once you experience these things happening automatically, you can begin to recognize that everything just happens according to an infinite number of supporting conditions (circumstances)

Yes I have experiences of this occasionally but it's sort of like forgetfullness occurs and the why and hows pop up in sneaky ways.

Thanks.


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

So by using the word carrier meaning the thought or sensation is the carrier,the content or information about the thought or sensation is not important,therefore being described as "contentless" but experienced ?

Hmm, the thought is made up of what it is about.
What it is about is fantasy. It is a story about something. It is not that something (content)
What we initially experience (fleetingly) is the fact of the thought happening. Then what it is about is responded to. That is the next experience. Because we are responding to that fantasy (what it was about) we are about to dive head first into a bottomless rabbit hole. (& maybe suffering)

So the belief about a thought,the belief also being another thought but the thought seems to be more locked in...so the belief was either attached to a body sensation or is taken to be a fact ,like a habit?

Yes a belief is a thought with another thought attached to it saying that it is true. (and of course that thought also has an attached thought saying it is true... ad infinitum)
Yes, a body sensation can (appear to) validate a thought and a thought can ascribe meaning to a sensation.
Habits are responses that no longer require the foundation story to be played out. (hardwired)

from some written words or a body sensation arising after hearing something or reading something etc.

Yes, we are reactive do anything, even subliminal cues can trigger a habit. (or other response)

the why and hows pop up in sneaky ways.

You'll get better at recognizing them and it will happen sooner and sooner. then...

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Hmm, the thought is made up of what it is about.
What it is about is fantasy. It is a story about something. It is not that something (content)
What we initially experience (fleetingly) is the fact of the thought happening. Then what it is about is responded to. That is the next experience. Because we are responding to that fantasy (what it was about) we are about to dive head first into a bottomless rabbit hole. (& maybe suffering)

A rabbit hole is always suffering.been experiencing one for about a day now. I thought that the only control we had is how we respond to thoughts and events but I find even that isn’t really true.Once suffering engages there is nothing to “do” but sit with it.Any effort rings with trying to be a controller or the effort is more avoidance of the stuck belief…The suffering belief that floored me this time is “I didn’t love my daughter enough to save her”.It’s unraveling somewhat now and a sort of an effortless efforting takes place…I can sit in stillness and/or inquire/ contemplate etc.

Yes, we are reactive to anything, even subliminal cues can trigger a habit. (or other response)

Yes reactions occur ….there seems to be reactions that are noticed and dissolved just by the noticing of them and one’s that are deep and hardwired and can be triggered by anything .. the noticing appears,sometimes not as quickly, and the sitting with uncomfortable thoughts/sensations can last much longer too and then the dissolve seems to happen.Gratitude appears. … surrender appears.

You'll get better at recognizing them and it will happen sooner and sooner. then...

encouraging words… as it does get exhausting sometimes

Thanks so much


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

I thought that the only control we had is how we respond to thoughts and events but I find even that isn’t really true

Good seeing..
Yes, if we have no control then we have no choice, so any decisions that happen are just thoughts arising. The same for intention. So it doesn't matter what we think (unless we respond to it) ..and add to that that whatever we do think about it, that thinking comes after the fact. Too late to change it.

Once suffering engages there is nothing to “do” but sit with it.

True. It's true for whatever we become aware of. Sit with it and don't add to it.

Any effort rings with trying to be a controller

No point in deluding yourself about being in control of anything. ..but that total acceptance of what IS, that does somehow allow change to happen.

the effort is more avoidance of the stuck belief…

You can go deeper than that. The stuck belief is what comes up as a way of escaping unpleasant emotions.
So there's the belief that this effort (action) has to happen under these circumstances. Behind that is the sensation that needs to be escaped from. Behind that is the story that originally triggered the escape plan.
This story doesn't need to be revealed. It can be assumed to exist.
Using the fetter model, if we can sit with the unpleasant sensation we will see that it contains no information. We can see that there's no implicit compulsion to end it. That only arrives with the first mentioned belief (story that we think is true)

I can sit in stillness and/or inquire/ contemplate etc.

Good stuff. Much can be revealed when this is happening.

and one’s that are deep and hardwired and can be triggered by anything .. the noticing appears,sometimes not as quickly, and the sitting with uncomfortable thoughts/sensations can last much longer too and then the dissolve seems to happen.Gratitude appears. … surrender appears.

yes, good. You will get better and better at this and then it won't be needed (as mucn)

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

So it doesn't matter what we think (unless we respond to it) ..and add to that that whatever we do think about it, that thinking comes after the fact. Too late to change it.

I suppose the question is "What fact"? Isn't a fact just another thought?

If we can sit with the unpleasant sensation we will see that it contains no information. We can see that there's no implicit compulsion to end it.

When you say there is no implicit compulstion to end it,what do you mean,as there appears to be a forward energy that is pushing for some sort of resolution for action or thoughts and the sitting needs to continue until the sensation seems to exhaust it self...It's odd because the unpleasant /thoughts sensations seem to arise more often upon waking or actually they in a sense wake me up ..I am sort of aware I am still sleeping and the unpleasant thoughts start and I wake up once they have started!The only way to describe it is they catch me in the sleep state.


Thank you


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

I suppose the question is "What fact"? Isn't a fact just another thought?

Oh, I was using that 'turn of phrase' to mean after the happening that we call experience.
You're right, fact is only a concept. ..and not very useful either.

Isn't a fact just another thought?

Yes, it is a certain kind of thought that has qualifying thoughts attached to it. Thoughts that say that it's right. It is a belief.

When you say there is no implicit compulsion to end it, what do you mean, as there appears to be a forward energy that is pushing for some sort of resolution for action or thoughts

Yes, and we need to examine this "forward energy" to see where it originates.
This is best done in 'real time', so sit..
Sit still and after a few minutes you will (likely) start to experience some discomfort. Some part of you will want to move to alleviate the growing discomfort. Don't move. Stay still.
Examine the sensation.
consider it's location. it's intensity. it's flavor, is it static or does it change? Consider every detail of the sensation.
Can you find any information in it?
Does that forward energy come from stories that the mind conjures?

they catch me in the sleep state.

This is interesting. It's almost as if they wait for your guard to be down. ha, that suggests sentience. Have you had thoughts about this?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Sit still and after a few minutes you will (likely) start to experience some discomfort. Some part of you will want to move to alleviate the growing discomfort. Don't move. Stay still.
Examine the sensation.
consider it's location. it's intensity. it's flavor, is it static or does it change? Consider every detail of the sensation.
Can you find any information in it?
Does that forward energy come from stories that the mind conjures?

The feelings are sort of in the entire body when the forward pushing sensations appear, moving about but contracted at the same time, ,when I sit with this and examine , thoughts and stories pop up, if I stay with it long it boils down to fear, very raw fear.Feels very tight and locked in.Almost all the doubt thoughts seem based in fear.I think I have said this before but the more expanded and fear free openness that occurs there seems to be a contracted fear that returns stronger. Like the fear is fighting back and trying to get stronger . I know these are thoughts but the extremes are getting bigger in both directions …

This is interesting. It's almost as if they wait for your guard to be down. ha, that suggests sentience. Have you had thoughts about this?

I’m not sure what you mean by “that suggests sentience”.Could you expand on that please.

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Judi,

“that suggests sentience”.

The way the fear seems to be manipulating you to keep away from something, suggests that it has independent intelligence.
Which, of course, it does. Well, not independent, but it uses your intelligence to achieve its purpose.
..and what is its purpose? To protect you.
Yes, it's your friend. Although misguided, it has your interests at heart.
There's a good chance that what it is protecting you from can't be verbalised because it happened either before you had language or it was lost when your brain pruned what it didn't think would be useful at about age 5.
Either way, it sees a big black hole to be avoided at all costs.
Now mind's biggest weapon is the promise of satisfaction if you follow it down (bottomless) rabbit holes.
The promise, in this case, is that if you can unearth the original trauma then it can be eliminated. This promise is strong because it has an element of truth, but the good news is that we don't need to find the original cause of this. We can safely presume that the stories surrounding this original incident were stories based on naive infant interpretations.
So the practical thing to do with this fear is to welcome it. To invite it in for morning tea so that you can get to know it.

if I stay with it long it boils down to fear, very raw fear.

This is the stick that we will poke the sleeping bear with.
In the beginning we just want to observe it stir. We are not trying to get it riled up to the point where it will attack.
Just stir it a little and get familiar with the feeling.

See how you go with this..

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Now mind's biggest weapon is the promise of satisfaction if you follow it down (bottomless) rabbit holes.
The promise, in this case, is that if you can unearth the original trauma then it can be eliminated. This promise is strong because it has an element of truth, but the good news is that we don't need to find the original cause of this. We can safely presume that the stories surrounding this original incident were stories based on naive infant interpretations.
So the practical thing to do with this fear is to welcome it. To invite it in for morning tea so that you can get to know it.

Yes this is very helpful as I realize there is a very big wanting to know the original fear triggered as there is no memory or past experience to reference.This desire to know is a deflection.

This is the stick that we will poke the sleeping bear with.
In the beginning we just want to observe it stir. We are not trying to get it riled up to the point where it will attack.
Just stir it a little and get familiar with the feeling.See how you go with this.

.Well the fear is very familiar,whats relatively new is staying with this "friend" rather than trying escape modes to ignore it.Are you saying take it more slowly? ..There is doubt that it will ever dissolve and there is desire for it to dissolve.I experience how it takes me into the rabbit hole,I experience how it leads me to externalize "problems" and look for external solutions.I experience how there is no contoller in reality yet the contoller mechanism still engages.And I experience how there is looking for external outcomes to change in order to verify experience.I experience the fear that is the foundation of all the escape modes.My cat is my teacher in this moment.She is older now,her world has changed.She's no longer a very good mouser and her survival mechanism are theatened so she is often restless now. and needs comforting,which for the cat helps her....comfort and satisfaction through mind are false promises.Acceptance of what is,is required.

Thank you


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

good evening Judi,

This desire to know is a deflection.

Yes, it's an interesting paradox. The promise of knowing is satisfaction while at the same time the fear blocks you from that knowing. ..and yes, it is a deflection. All in your best interests (at least that's the intention)

Are you saying take it more slowly?

No. it will proceed at it's own pace. (& this will fluctuate)

.There is doubt that it will ever dissolve

OK, does this doubt come from an intellectual conclusion, or is it a feeling?

desire for it to dissolve.

If we're skillful about this we will change that desire for it to dissolve, to a desire for it to be ok to be there. (then, paradoxically, it may dissolve)

.I experience how it takes me into the rabbit hole,I experience how it leads me to externalize "problems" and look for external solutions.I experience how there is no contoller in reality yet the contoller mechanism still engages.And I experience how there is looking for external outcomes to change in order to verify experience.I experience the fear that is the foundation of all the escape modes.

It is excellent that you see every one of these. Recognizing that they have occurred is the key to freedom (from them)

comfort and satisfaction through mind are false promises.

yes, absolutely. There's another reality too about these things, and that it that they are transitory anyway. There is no resting in them. They can only be acknowledged as they go past.

Acceptance of what is,is required.

This is a brilliant portal. ..and if you can see that by the time you realize 'what is', that it's already in the past and so anything other than complete, total acceptance of it is just post-it notes covering reality.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

OK, does this doubt come from an intellectual conclusion, or is it a feeling?

Its a feeling/sensation butI am seeing that thought is the driver of feelings. The fear bear feels more like a baby bear right now as I check the body and it is releasing sensations… expectations appear and disappear

If we're skillful about this we will change that desire for it to dissolve, to a desire for it to be ok to be there. (then, paradoxically, it may dissolve)

Yes this is useful.

and if you can see that by the time you realize 'what is', that it's already in the past and so anything other than complete, total acceptance of it is just post-it notes covering reality

I see that yes and seeing that thoughts are like bubbles .
Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

does this doubt come from an intellectual conclusion, or is it a feeling?

Its a feeling/sensation

Ok, good. This tells us that it isn't intellectual. That it's rooted in trauma.
Can you pull up a memory/feeling of uncertainty from the (distant) past? Not just a single incident but a reoccurring one.

I am seeing that thought is the driver of feelings.

This is accurate, but in this case (IMHO) the thoughts that spawned the original doubts (about your worthiness) are lost, leaving the feeling that produces the present thoughts that produce these feelings. (ha)
We don't need to dig up the original happenings. To just know that they exist is enough. ..and to acknowledge that a child's naive perspective was inadequate to cope. ..and that an adult can recognize this and let it go.
Now I may be completely wrong about all of this, but the reactions in you as you read it will be telling...

with love

vince