Opening to Truth

[Roselight]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that we have been conditioned early on to refer to ourself/body/thoughts as a me/mine with lots of descriptions and labels. Like we have a little self behind our forehead that is our "personality" with traits and memories and self-images. None of this is true, it was created with thought and is maintained by thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
Primarily to find a guide to point me to see through what I still catch myself calling "me". A guide to question and surprise me into finding the truth. Just when it seems like there is some awareness of the self, I snap back into the old beliefs. But I see that reading some of the material and interviews, I already can feel some shifting, just a bit.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I trust the guide to have worked with the "self" and is free from identifying with that concept. I hope the guide can really see how I am not aware of the beliefs I take for granted and shine a light on this. I've had tastes but it's sort of been around the edges of awareness. So our conversation might just be an open, honest exchange where the questions are direct and objective.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been involved in a spiritual community for almost 15 years. Lots of practices and inquiry and gatherings. Silent retreats and groups. I have a morning practice of meditation. I can still feel the seeking mechanism within me.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Alless]

Hello Roselight

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self – through what you call "me."

If you are happy for me to guide here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:

Post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Direct Experience., not from what you have read, heard, learned or known so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Be 100% honest And write as much as you can. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste your responses into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Let me know if this is all OK with you or if you have any questions.

Alan

[Roselight]

Hi Alan.
Thank you so much for responding. I am looking forward to opening to this adventure. Yes to disclaimer, terms and conditions and I get/agree with what LU is not.
I could not find the video you recommended, I didn’t know how to look up that information on the site. I tried putting it in the search function…no luck. I have an idea of “myself” that doesn’t get tech very well. If there is a link you could send, that may help or another way I could look it up?
I am so looking forward to working together and I will be on a silent retreat May 22-29. Would it be possible for me to answer questions in a journal each day and then send the responses when I get home? There are no electronics during the silent retreat or I would do it there.
Otherwise I would like to post each day and live this perspective.
With gratitude,
Rose

[Alless]

Hello Rose,

Lovely to hear from you ! Thank you for confirming the LU information

I could not find the video you recommended,

Apologies for that glitch. Here is another link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s
If this link does not work directly by clicking on it, just copy and paste the link into the URL in your browser. Let me know how it goes.

I will be on a silent retreat May 22-29

That is not an issue at all. We can look at the options as we get close to the retreat

In your introduction you say

I still catch myself calling "me". A guide to question and surprise me into finding the truth. Just when it seems like there is some awareness of the self, I snap back into the old beliefs.

Tell me about the I and about the “me”

Is there both an I and a me?

As you look for them describe what you find?

Tell me about the old beliefs. What they are?

When did they arrive? Have they changed?

You say

I snap back into the old beliefs

What is controlling the snapping back?

Take your time in responding to the questions. Tell me what you find as you look deeply.

I am so looking forward to working together

Same here Rose !

And oh, by the way I am on the east coast of Australia. Which time zone are you in?

With love

A

[Roselight]

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your kind reply. I will spend some time on the answers. But I briefly wanted to let you know I made a mistake and my retreat is APRIL 22-29- I'm so sorry to have written the wrong month. It's this Saturday (I'm in California, Pacific Time).I hope we can still work something out with such short notice. I love your questions and will answer today. Thank you Alan.
Blessings, Rose

[Roselight]

Hi Alan,
Here goes...

Tell me about the I and about the “me”

The" I “feels like an ego, more commanding part and feels more solid, substantial. It feels more present moment and now. The “me” seems like “I’,” describing the me, mine, story of what I will do, maybe more past and future as a “me” in the world. I have a strong inner dialogue where I think they talk to each other like “I have a busy day to day etc etc” and then the “me” responds like “You better remember to do x because it’s important and don’t forget about this!” In this way they feel separate and are 2 parts. This has been very strong in me.

They FEEL like the same “thing” but are different expressions of the same thing, almost like a language thing. So I guess it seems like there is an I and a me when I’m dialoging internally or talking to myself.

As you look for them describe what you find?

Looking for them…as I close my eyes and look for the I and story, there’s nothing there, no thought even. Like turning towards this, there’s silence. Turning towards this sense of “I”, it feels like it disappeared AND they are quiet.

Tell me about the old beliefs. What they are?

Old beliefs, some specific like “I’m run “by feelings of feeling badly or dread. Some deep belief around needing to suffer and not allowing the peace. Like “oh yeah, I’m supposed to feel bad right now and remember all the things that bother “me””. This happens often after I’ve felt spacious for a bit. Like “you better remember who you are now and solve some problems!”
Of course there are lots of old beliefs, but snapping back beliefs can be anything but especially “I’ll never be at peace really. Who am I kidding?” So lots of beliefs but you ask, what they are… they seem to be the ground I stand on, everything I know, feels very deep, primal. A thought that has been woven into deep knots of tangle. The felt basis of how I know life.

When did they arrive? Have they changed?

They seem to have arrived in the womb! And have become the life I know. Always a part of “me”, the not allowing the soft love to stay. The past 4 years, there has been more and more space/love available intermixed with the issues of life. So there’s a growing sense of space/softness with pockets/clumps of contraction beliefs in there. I think the beliefs are softened but still believed. IF the beliefs have changed, it would be “Yes, “you” can feel good, but only for awhile before you have to worry about everyone else” We’ll give you a little wiggle room for now”. I think some beliefs have changed over time, but then it became a “good” belief. Tricky business.

What is controlling the snapping back?

Sometimes it seems like it’s just a passing state and my mind get a hold of the state and the “me” interprets it, like, “Oh this isn’t going to be good”. So in this case the mind grabs the experience I guess, and brings in all “my” conditioning/beliefs/expectations and then I’m snapped back into a “me”. It does feel very automatic most of the time, especially if the emotion/experience is unpleasant. It happens so fast. I think instinct can also be a force to deal with in snapping back, fear coming up and the “me” experiencing as a threat (when it may not be). What comes up as I answer this is the importance of being present and watching the snapping. This has happened and I can witness it some of the time. It can’t be controlled, but it can be noticed and seen. So I really don’t know what controls it, it’s the way the thoughts, energy seem to go at times. As I contemplate this, I feel a strong sense in my torso, solar plexis and head as related to the “snapping back”. Like a bodily reaction. What ever it is, it does not want me to be the truth.

Thank you for listening Alan. This feels so good to explore and really look.
Rose

[Alless]

Hello Rose,

This feels so good to explore and really look.

Wonderful !

Thanks you for all you wrote.
First of all here are a few comments about some key things you wrote.
Then there are a couple of exercises that can be very helpful in seeing clearly.

You start by saying

The" I “feels like an ego,

Can you find the ego as an entity? Is the ego real or is it a concept?

I have a strong inner dialogue where I think they talk to each other

What is this dialogue made of? Is it dialoguing truth?

Then you say

Looking for them…as I close my eyes and look for the I and story, there’s nothing there, no thought even. Like turning towards this, there’s silence. Turning towards this sense of “I”, it feels like it disappeared AND they are quiet.

Beautiful 😊 This is a good example of clarity in seeing.

So lots of beliefs but you ask, what they are… they seem to be the ground I stand on, everything I know, feels very deep, primal. A thought that has been woven into deep knots of tangle. The felt basis of how I know life.

We want to get to the root of these deep knots of tangle. What creates this tangle? Is there a you that weaves our thoughts into this tangle? What continues to keep it together?

I think some beliefs have changed over time, but then it became a “good” belief. Tricky business.

Sure is tricky business 😊 But only when we try to figure it out through thought. How do we not get caught up in this tangle and its trickiness?

It can’t be controlled, but it can be noticed and seen.

This is a critical key

As I contemplate this, I feel a strong sense in my torso, solar plexis and head as related to the “snapping back”

Sit with this and just notice it without a story or commentary. Allow it to express itself fully and see what comes. Look BEHIND the sensation. What is there?

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could LOOK DIRECTLY.
What color is is the heel of your left sock or shoe? When you LOOK DIRECTLY? Is it what you thought it was?
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling
Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start
As you are sitting responding to this post describe what you are seeing without labels.
Describe what you are hearing without labels.

There is a lot here and you may want to take more than a day to explore fully. Giving a daily update of what you are experiencing with just however much you cover that day can be a very useful way to do this. Take your time and no need to rush

With love

A

[Alless]

Hello Rose,

This feels so good to explore and really look.

Wonderful !

Thanks you for all you wrote.

First of all here are a few comments about some key things you wrote.
Then there are a couple of exercises that can be very helpful in seeing clearly.

You start by saying

The" I “feels like an ego,

Can you find the ego as an entity? Is the ego real or is it a concept?

I have a strong inner dialogue where I think they talk to each other

What is this dialogue made of? Is it dialoguing truth?

Then you say

Looking for them…as I close my eyes and look for the I and story, there’s nothing there, no thought even. Like turning towards this, there’s silence. Turning towards this sense of “I”, it feels like it disappeared AND they are quiet.

Beautiful 😊 This is a good example of clarity in seeing.

So lots of beliefs but you ask, what they are… they seem to be the ground I stand on, everything I know, feels very deep, primal. A thought that has been woven into deep knots of tangle. The felt basis of how I know life.

We want to get to the root of these deep knots of tangle. What creates this tangle? Is there a you that weaves our thoughts into this tangle? What continues to keep it together?

I think some beliefs have changed over time, but then it became a “good” belief. Tricky business.

Sure is tricky business 😊 But only when we try to figure it out through thought. How do we not get caught up in this tangle and its trickiness?

It can’t be controlled, but it can be noticed and seen.

This is a critical key

As I contemplate this, I feel a strong sense in my torso, solar plexis and head as related to the “snapping back”

Sit with this and just notice it without a story or commentary. Allow it to express itself fully and see what comes. Look BEHIND the sensation. What is there?

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)
Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color is is the heel of your left sock or shoe? When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe what you are seeing without labels.

Describe what you are hearing without labels.

With love

A

[Alless]

Hello Rose

Sorry for inadvertently sending twice.

The original post is the one to use.

Love

A

[Alless]

Its me again Rose.

For some reason I did not get notification of your message about the retreat starting on this Saturday till seeing your post just now.

No problem. Might be best to take a break for the week. Give me 24 hours and I could suggest a couple of things to be aware of during the week if you would like.

Love

A

[Roselight]

Hi Alan,
So good to be with you again.
Here goes.

Can you find the ego as an entity? Is the ego real or is it a concept?

I know in my mind it is a concept, and it feels like concentrated energy. I think that’s why it seems so real. But yes, it is a concept that I have ordinary knowledge about and have studied. The superego (me, mine) has a view about the ego!
Can I find it? The closest to finding it is the energy contraction around the reactions. But that’s not a thing per se, but a sensation. No, there is no entity called ego. When I “go inside” to look, the attention goes to the head center, behind the eyes. It’s almost like I can feel the synapses creating something, but there is no ego there. And it does feel like there is force there somehow, but not a “thing”. So, there is no reality of an ego that enforces a personality and makes me do things.

What is this dialogue made of? Is it dialoguing truth?

Thank you for this question. It feels like habitual patterns of thought, back and forth, developed for safety and distraction. Made of?? Inner or outer spoken thoughts, words, language. Keeps me on the surface of “myself”. Feels like some kind of internal “push” to express, especially anything that I find upsetting or stimulating. I can also have a mundane conversation too-ha. But a push, urge and habit to think and comment. Keeps “me” company. Talks me out of upsetness. Can soothe me. Made of thoughts that tell me about me or convince me to be more of what I am. Continues the me.
There is no truth that I can see in this dialogue, it feels only like thoughts to “discharge” or something. Even when I tell “myself” some wise remembrance to help me feel better, it is to help “me” get shored up, not a truth. Even though I know all this, I still get caught in it all, but I’m seeing it sooner these days. It can’t be truth if I can witness it or be aware of it. The truth sees the dialogue.

We want to get to the root of these deep knots of tangle. What creates this tangle?

The sense I get is that the creation of the tangle had already been established before I even got here. Like I entered an environment of tangle of thoughts/beliefs and started to be shaped by them. So the tangle seems established, “I” take them on as thoughts/orientation as a baby and believe in them. Then I start having thoughts about these beliefs and and thoughts about my experiences through the thoughts which makes more thoughts and lots of tangle. I had a psychedelic journey years ago where I was shown the ENORMOUS tangle, rope-like, vine-like growths that are in “place”, invisible in our environment, thought form or ego-like structures. It was way bigger than me and I felt at the time, it would be nearly impossible to break free from this. The message was only for me to see it, I took it as impossible. This could be a big belief for me, it’s too big to escape.
Good to see.

Is there a you that weaves our thoughts into this tangle?

Yes, I sense that I actively (although not consciously) join the tangle and get caught in it, believe it and add to it. What is this me? If I am unconscious, I “believe” the program here. The unaware “me” is like a zombie that is moving through motions that are preprogrammed it seems. Part of me still believes in the program, that “me”, again, is not the awareness. That “me” feels like smoke, a trace of familiar energy that is latching onto something it’s used to. It is not solid, but it feels like it has some light substance to it. The awareness is aware of this familiar “urge” to join the tangle.

What continues to keep it together?

I feels like it has an energy of it’s own, a momentum. This seems supported by distractions, lack of quiet, busyness, pace of technology, we don’t know that it’s there etc. Conflict, as a distraction can keep it there too. It’s more difficult for me to see what’s going on (my tangle) when I’m having a reaction, especially if it’s instinctual. So fear keeps it together too. We don’t venture outside of this much, how do we make the break so to speak? So look at the tangle..it feels like brain wiring, the circuits that just go that way. I think for me, lack of awareness, of what’s here, keeps it together. Believing in it as a circuit that is not seen fully, keeps it the same or together.

How do we not get caught up in this tangle and its trickiness?

What comes is a very clear sense of space around the tangle. It feels visual and also feels like using the mind to see the mind? I can sense when I’m getting caught in a pattern with my partner, my body tenses, irritation is there and I want to defend myself. I sense a thought that says, “just see what is happening right now”. I take a breath. It’s like I want to “back away” from the energy that is revving up. Put space in and around where I am feeling the reaction. Also to slow way down and pause. But it seems important to get what the patterns are so I can recognize what’s happening when it happens. The it being the reactive, physical response.

Sit with this and just notice it without a story or commentary. Allow it to express itself fully and see what comes. Look BEHIND the sensation. What is there?

As I stay with it, it can begin to burn in my solar plexis, like an intense moment. When I snap back to unawareness, I can sense an edge of going “back” to the old place, familiar. Underneath it feels empty I think, some kind of loosening that feels more spacious.

There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced.

I liked the article and I really want to “know” the quote above deeply. I don’t fully comprehend and I’m starting to maybe. There something fresh about this. It’s intimate.

As you are sitting responding to this post describe what you are
seeing without labels. Describe what you are hearing without labels.

I took a walk outside in the trees, roads, for this, and made a recording of what I saw, here it is.
I see light and dark shapes, movement of objects , furry tops of sticks, movement of different light colored circles on the ground. Shadowy things that create shapes and lines. Fluffy, fluttering movement off of sticks.
Roar in background, loud then quiet. Buzz in distance, crunching under my feet, a beeping, purring on right. Piter pater sound.

Give me 24 hours and I could suggest a couple of things to be aware of during the week if you would like.
I would love that!

Thank you Alan,
With appreciation to you, Rose

[Alless]

Hello Rose

Good to see your post !

The superego (me, mine) has a view about the ego!

Can you see how this is the mind talking in labels, concepts? It is our default as humans !

It was way bigger than me and I felt at the time, it would be nearly impossible to break free from this. The message was only for me to see it, I took it as impossible. This could be a big belief for me, it’s too big to escape.
Good to see.

Good to see indeed. “I took it as impossible” What if this belief is still believed even subtly? And if it is still believed is this the real root? Could the real root not just be this belief but the “I” that is believing this lie? Can it be found? Or is it an imagined fictional character that is running the show? What we’re going for here is to look to see what it is that is holding this charade together.

If I am unconscious, I “believe” the program here. The unaware “me” is like a zombie

What is the unaware “me”? Could it be that the unaware “me” / the “I” IS the program that is running our living? And then the unaware “me” decides it has got to sort out this mess. While analogies have their real limitations consider this. What if the “me” is like a program in a computer? In a computer we know that programs are what makes it do the things it does. If a program gets infected by a virus chaos can ensue. What if that program which has been infected is a virus detection program and virus detection program itself gets infected by a virus? Would it ever be able to reliably detect viruses? Could the virus detector now be trusted to “see” a virus within itself?

That is like us trying to use thought to find the source of our suffering. We think we can. Thinking we can is a "virus" in itself. Looping around and around. We can never figure it out. And yet we persist !! Oh the suffering that ensues. Something greater than the program is required. We call it awareness. And we "know" that too. We refer to it as Direct Experience. (And we know that too !!) Having knowledge of this is so important. However being truly willing to LOOK and SEE is what changes things.

What comes is a very clear sense of space around the tangle.

In reality is there just a sense of space or are you that space which you are seeing from?
Down further you wrote

There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced.
I liked the article and I really want to “know” the quote above deeply. I don’t fully comprehend and I’m starting to maybe. There something fresh about this. It’s intimate.

Continue to heed this call in every aspect of living.
Consider this in the light of this truth "There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced" - do you just sense the space, as you mentioned earlier, or are you that space?

crunching under my feet

Something to consider here. If you were carrying a new born baby in your arms while you were hearing crunching under your feet what would the baby be experiencing? Would it not just be the sound we call crunching without ANY interpretation? There would be no knowledge (mind) of where the crunching was, what was making the crunching noise, whether it was near or far. The experience would be of pure hearing. That is direct experience.

Now if you were carrying say a 4 year old instead how might they describe what they experience? Highly probable they might say something like “Why do your shoes sound funny” (Often it is a "why" question at this age !! ) or “The stones are making funny noises”, “Why are your boots are making loud noises” Hopefully you get the idea here. The child will be adding its own narrative to the experience. We might respond by giving some explanation. Or applaud them for what they are saying. We can see that labels and imagining are taking strong hold at this age and are being reinforced in a child’s development. Very soon the tangle is well developed and continues to filter direct experience. And by the time we are adults the stories can seem to take over.

See how we add layer upon layer to DE?. The frustrating thing can be that "Yes, we know this" (with the mind) However being able to SEE this changes everything. (Yet the paradox is that nothing actually changes just the way we SEE it.)

Describing the experience directly (DE) the description “crunching under my feet” might simply be “crunching is heard”

So with experiencing directly being at the heart of this exploration and remembering you will be away for a week the suggestion comes that whenever you can, you could do this .

Keep in mind that we are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment.

And a reminder (as we have covered in an earlier post) that Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

During the next week while you're on retreat here’s something to try as often as you are. Label daily activities simply by their color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Direct Experience – Simple Labeling of Daily Activities

So for example, while having breakfast for instance, become aware of:

Seeing a cup – simply notice just the image/color
Smelling tea or coffee - notice just the smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup - pay attention to just the sensation
Tasting the coffee - simply experience the taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee - simply notice the sound
Thought about drinking the coffee - notice the thought without being carried away by its content

From time to time throughout the day - when you are able - experience the moment in these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and give some examples of some of your experience when you come back.

Let me know if this is clear or if you would like any further clarification.

Post me any time you need to. And I will look out for your next post when you get back

All the very best for the week ahead

Alan

[Roselight]

Hello Alan,
I wanted to send this before I go away. It feels like a very good pre-paving of the retreat in a way.

What if this belief is still believed even subtly? And if it is still believed is this the real root? Could the real root not just be this belief but the “I” that is believing this lie? Can it be found? Or is it an imagined fictional character that is running the show? What we’re going for here is to look to see what it is that is holding this charade together.

I’m glad to be pointed to the “I” that has believed this. So, not only a a belief that runs the “I” around in a certain way, but whatever the “I” is.
Can it be found? As I inquire, and ask, I sense a “group” of me’s, like parts of thought that are convinced of this, more in the head center. Like thought-forms floating around. Or seeming to. I ask again and wait, silence now. No parts. No one is “home” in the head center.

What is the unaware “me”? Could it be that the unaware “me” / the “I” IS the program that is running our living?

As I read this, it feels like more of that ghost-like smoke in my body, especially head-center. The unaware me also seems like it has many levels of unawareness, layers almost. I can be partially aware and yet have a dullness that still persists. It feels like levels of forgetfulness. Levels of belief/ expectations and assumptions that are not questioned but acted out automatically.
If this program is running living, it feels so hypnotic and rote. A closed circuit that looks to the same circuit for the next direction. I guess if something is not something we are aware of (being habitual) it will not be examined, noticed. So it is excluding some truth, and running living from a limited and assumed perspective.

That is like us trying to use thought to find the source of our suffering. We think we can. Thinking we can is a "virus" in itself. Looping around and around. We can never figure it out.

I appreciate your analogy and I still try to “figure out” what you are saying. It can go so deep I need to leave my mind behind! It is good to be focused on this so that I can understand what is happening here. So, thinking I can fix my suffering with my mind (thought) is saying I can find the origin of the suffering and do something about it. Thinking I can use thoughts to solve my dilemma, is using thought upon thought? For example, I have tried to help a family member with issues and use future thoughts to reduce my anxiety. But the future thoughts of what I will do to help her never really relieve this. Once one issue is taken care of, then I worry about the next, and so on. There seems to be no end. Is this what you mean?
There’s a desire to see somewhere beyond this rat race, and you point to awareness.

In reality is there just a sense of space or are you that space which you are seeing from?

In some ways I can literally feel the space around the visual tangle, like it is loosening something. But when I’m quiet, eyes closed, I can feel that I’m part of the space too. Without seeing, I do feel I am the space and the tangle is in the space of what I am. This is rather new. Without a conflict or awareness of the tangle, I can feel myself as living space, especially without visuals. When there is a response needed, it can be harder for me to perceive the space that I am. I am still contemplating the notion that I might be the space which I am SEEING FROM. This has hit me a new way and I don’t yet know this.

Continue to heed this call in every aspect of living.

Reading this, I just felt myself turn into space and it seemed like the words were echoing in my body. The moment I read it, it felt like sacred wisdom.

Consider this in the light of this truth "There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced" - do you just sense the space, as you mentioned earlier, or are you that space?

I notice more space, but not so much that I am the space. I get caught a bit on the words of the experience and experienced in the same moment. I think my mind tries to figure out what she was writing about. That there is no separation. I’m just still feeling a boundary, but I feel closer to the experience (in this case, in my room, looking at a flower). I experience the flower visually and with fragrance, it’s an experience. I think I resonate more with DE not being separate from the experiencer, or does that make a “me” out of it when I say experienceR? When I contemplate this with silence, the “I” that I know as individual consciousness feels very connected to the experience of the flower, like it is part of me. The ”knowing” of this feels spacious and open. I haven’t yet connected myself as the space in this particular moment. Just thought I’d ramble on about this as I see it in this moment.

See how we add layer upon layer to DE?. The frustrating thing can be that "Yes, we know this" (with the mind) However being able to SEE this changes everything. (Yet the paradox is that nothing actually changes just the way we SEE it.)

This is the shift I want to practice and know deeply. Yes, I have years of understanding reification of experience, and on and on. Mostly head centered understanding of labeling.
I love to hear that nothing actually changes , just the way we see it. I have felt on the cusp of this at times.

Thank you for the suggestions and examples of DE, I have not heard this so clearly. I will practice this on walks and, as you said, meal times, in silence. It really is a fine way to practice being with experience in this world, on a retreat with less distractions.

I will be in touch when I return.

I do sense that your explanations are so helpful, I feel understood through your understandings of what I write.
Thank you again Alan,
Rose

[Roselight]

Hi Alan,
I wanted to finish up my last post (pre-retreat). This retreat allowed for looking into what you describe below:

During the next week while you're on retreat here’s something to try as often as you are. Label daily activities simply by their color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

From time to time throughout the day - when you are able - experience the moment in these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and give some examples of some of your experience when you come back.

Vacuuming-
Seeing the large square metal thing,
smells of dust.
Pushing and pulling, feel of handle. Gripping happening. Feel of smooth, slippery (electric) cords, unwrapping, wrapping around.
Sound of “whoosh”, loud, ringing, vibrating outward.
Thought of “is this clean enough?”

Sweeping-
See stick with hay on end, hanging on wall, yellow, brown
Long stick (handle) smooth, cold, solid
Sound of a screech as sweeping is happening, feel of air, back and forth.
Arms moving back and forth, looking happening
Thought “already pretty clean here”.

Wiping-
White cloth, blue stripe, with bumps on them, rough, seeing smooth glass
Smell of sourness (vinegar), pungent
Squeaking of cloth on window, mild thumping of back and forth
Arm movement, shoulder movement, pressing happening

Eating-
With most meals I found myself taking time with DE especially seeing and texture/taste.


Oatmeal-
See bowl, with texture of grey oats with seeds, small raisins, fruit. Spoon texture gummy, runniness seen with spoon, sticky.
Couldn’t smell much or describe it.
Hear the crunch of seeds and others eating it around me, clanging of spoons to scrape up the oatmeal.
Mouthfeel is small soft globs of seeds, smooth and sticky, warm bowl.
Taste is not noticeable without raisins for sweetness.
Thought “I like this, but everyday??

Best smell
See bowl of red tomato soup in large metal soup pan, smooth texture.
Clanging of retreatants ladeling the soup to bowls
Warmth of soup felt on my palms of hands
Smell was so vibrant, can’t really describe but can be remembered now
Taste was so fresh, soothing, can’t describe (not a foodie)
Thought “ I could eat this every day”


Flowers,
Seeing the varieties of plants/flowers was amazing. Colors very vivid, every plant, seemed to be quite unique in its formation. Noticing the buds, flowering parts, stems, ridges. This got more and more obvious as I practiced. Here, I mostly noticed the seeing, and some thoughts like how beautiful the plant was or how different it was in its color/image.

Hope I’ve got the feel for this. Thank you for listening. I look forward to continuing working with you.
Rose

[Alless]

Hello Rose,

Welcome back !

I look forward to continuing working with you.

And I with you !

Thank you for your responses to the DE exercise. I can feel the DE starting to unveil itself.

With most meals I found myself taking time with DE especially seeing and texture/taste.

Now we can take this to the next level by honing it further. It is so habitual for the mind to impose itself, it typically happens without it being noticed – adding interpretations, adding preferences, adding labels – so many layers added to direct experience unconsciously.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities (Part 2)

During the last week the exercise suggested while you were away was to simply notice the 5 dimensions of DE – seeing, hearing, smelling, sensation, tasting and thinking in daily activities.

As a next step we’re going to look at these dimensions of DE in a slightly different way. This will be very helpful in our exploration.

In this approach I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can to label daily activities simply as:
• color/image,
• sound,
• smell,
• taste,
• sensation,
• thought.

So using the previous example activity of having breakfast, become aware of:

Activity: Having breakfast
Seeing a cup, simply (label it as ) = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Let’s take one of the activities you reported in your last post as another example. This time it could look like this:

Activity: Vacuuming
Seeing metal vacuum cleaner, simply = color
Smells of dust, simply = smell
Feel of smooth, slippery (electric) cords, simply = sensation
Tasting (not applicable here)
Sound of “whoosh”, loud, ringing, simply = sound
Thought of “is this clean enough?” simply = thought

Post several of your own observations of gaily activities in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Please let me know if this is not clear.

With love

A