dispelling the illusion of a separate self

[poppyseed]

Hi Mick

Awesome investigating! Beautiful answers! How is life these days?

But the manifestation of these sensations (which can be labeled as ‘wanting’) was not the result of a choice.

“Wanting” and “desires” are beliefs that something is missing and incomplete, a judgement that says “what is” isn’t perfect, but something else would be instead. These beliefs are layered on top of whatever is happening (sensations, sounds, colours, tastes, and/or smells). Do you see that?

And from a DE perspective: life is nothing but a constant stream of raw sensations. There’s no stopping it, controlling it or changing any of it. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts happen, that’s all there’s too it. Is that the key insight of non-duality? Should I try to come back to the DE of these raw sensations often – labeling everything in terms of sights, sounds, thoughts, etc?

There is no doer or thinker but the impression remains that there is an experiencer… How should I go about in directly experiencing that there is no separate experiencer? Or am I seeing / framing this the wrong way?

Examine the sentence: “Should I try to come back to the DE of these raw sensations often”. Is there an entity/”I” that does that? Or does it happen on its own? Next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly? Is there anything being aware? Is anything doing the being aware? What pays attention, notices experiences, and labels them? What identifies with experience? Is there an experiencer, a witness? What does he look like? If it can’t be experienced through the senses what makes "him" different from a belief?

There is still a pretty tenacious belief that – although there is no ‘I’ in charge of any of it, no ‘I’ controlling – all of those direct experiences are still happening to me…There is in this sense only the direct experience – no need for a separate experiencer. But this remains a thought. How should I go about in directly experiencing that there is no separate experiencer? Or am I seeing / framing this the wrong way?

Just look , what is doubt? What makes these beliefs/view "yours"? Can these "doubtful" thoughts simply be appearing on their own? How are they different from clouds just moving in the sky? What identifies with the doubtful thoughts?

When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in.

The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought and activity, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of a life are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “your self” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?
You can find this video quite helpful in this regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD58 ... 4&index=27

Is there anything else that you want to explore?
Love

[Mick]

Dear Rali,

Awesome investigating! Beautiful answers! How is life these days?

Thank you! Life is good. There’s a habit forming of labeling direct experiences as ‘sensation’, ‘thought’, etc. which helps with not identifying with thoughts and sensations.

“Wanting” and “desires” are beliefs that something is missing and incomplete, a judgement that says “what is” isn’t perfect, but something else would be instead. These beliefs are layered on top of whatever is happening (sensations, sounds, colours, tastes, and/or smells). Do you see that?

Yes, thanks for pointing this out, that’s very helpful. The raw sensation itself has no meaning – it isn’t pleasant, unpleasant, isn’t craving or aversion. Those are all labels imposed on sensations / direct experience in general. Judgments are always thoughts that impose themselves on the raw experiences. Just like the self is a thought imposed on the raw experience. The realization (another thought, but a helpful one) that these judgments are just labels and have no basis in actual experience, helps to come out of their spell, right?

Examine the sentence: “Should I try to come back to the DE of these raw sensations often”. Is there an entity/”I” that does that? Or does it happen on its own?

It happens on its own. The thought just pops up ‘this is just a sensation’ or ‘this is just a thought’. And, as pointed out above, it happens more and more lately.

Next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens.

Will do.

At which point is there a decision to snap out?

No decision, it just happens.

Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly?

It simply happens and requires no action or effort.

Is there anything being aware?

No, the awareness is in the experience. It is not something separate from it.

Is anything doing the being aware?

No, the awareness in the experience requires no action, no doing. It happens.

What pays attention, notices experiences, and labels them?

The noticing is in the experience. It’s not the case that there is an experience and then there is something noticing the experience. There is only an experience if there is awareness or noticing of that experience. There is no such thing as an unnoticed experience. It would be a contradiction in terms. The experience can’t not be noticed and there is nothing to be done to notice the experience.
The labeling of the experience is nothing but a thought that pops up on its own. There’s no way to stop it and no way to make it happen. It happens by itself, like any other experience.

What identifies with experience? Is there an experiencer, a witness? What does he look like? If it can’t be experienced through the senses what makes "him" different from a belief?

Nothing identifies with the experience. There are only thoughts popping up that ‘I’ experience something. There is nothing separate from the experience that undergoes the experience. There is not a raw sensation and someone registering that raw sensation. The sensation, as pointed out, cannot not be experienced and there is no action involved in experiencing it. It cannot be experienced differently and it cannot be made to appear.
The experiencer cannot be a thought, sensation, sight, sound, smell or taste. So it cannot be anything that appears in DE. It is a label imposed on direct experience by a thought. It is no different than any other belief or judgment. It has no basis in actual experience. Only in certain thoughts.
So, there is no experiencer, only experience.


J

ust look , what is doubt? What makes these beliefs/view "yours"? Can these "doubtful" thoughts simply be appearing on their own? How are they different from clouds just moving in the sky? What identifies with the doubtful thoughts?

Doubt is a label imposed by a thought on a sensation. Beliefs or views are not ‘mine’, they are based in thoughts that come and go on their own. Indeed like clouds in the sky. There is nothing that identifies with doubtful thoughts. The identification would be the result of a further thought (which also comes and goes on its own and so cannot be claimed to be ‘mine’).

Is there anything else that you want to explore?

I think, as you point, that the realization is there. It just needs to sink in some more. Thanks for the video, that’s really helpful!

Let me briefly recap the realization that happened through your expert guiding:
From DE it is perfectly clear to me that:
- There is no ‘I’ instigating, controlling or steering thoughts, sensations and other experiences (sounds, colors, etc.). They just happen.
- Sensations – which are labeled emotions by thinking processes – and thoughts are no more ‘mine’ than sounds and colors. It makes no more sense that say that I’m mad than to say that I’m a tree when seeing colors that are interpreted by thought as depicting a tree.
- There is no separate I witnessing experiences. The witnessing is in the experience itself. There is no way not to witness the experiences that manifest, there is no way to witness other experiences, and in order to witness something there is nothing that has to be done / that can be done. Also, there is no DE of a separate witness, so it’s a label imposed on DE.
- ‘I’ ‘me’ and ‘mine’ are labels imposed on direct experience by thought. There is no direct experience of a self. The only things that are experienced are sights, sounds, thoughts arising, etc. All of these direct experiences come, change and go on their own accord.
- Saying all this happens to ‘me’ is the result of a thought imposed on DE. Judgments of any kind (good / bad) are thoughts imposed on DE. These thoughts – like anything else in DE – arise and pass away on their own and add a layer on the actual experience. There is nothing in the actual experience that is ‘me’, ‘mine’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’.

Is there any important element missing from this?
Any next steps you recommend?

Thank you so very, very much!

Much love,

Mick

[poppyseed]

Hi Mick

I really enjoyed reading your answers! There is so much clarity here. We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?
Love
Rali

[Mick]

Dear Rali,

Thank you so much! Yes, I would definitely like to answer the final questions and any other you may deem helpful.

Much love,

Michael

[poppyseed]

Hi Mick
Awesome! Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

[Mick]

Dear Rali,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate ‘self’, ‘me’ or ‘I’ in any way, shape or form. There never was. When looking at actual / direct experience, the only manifestations that can be found are: sensations, sights / colors, sounds, smells, tastes and thoughts arising. There is nothing else. No self. Since the self (the notions of ‘I’, ‘me’ or ‘mine’) is not part of actual experience, it must be imposed on the actual experience by thought(s). The self is a mental construct.
From DE it is clear that there is no separate entity instigating or controlling thoughts. They just pop up seemingly out of nowhere, just like any other raw sensation (sights, sounds, sensations, etc.). Also, obviously, a label or a thought (‘I’, ‘me’) cannot produce or control other thoughts. So it makes no sense to state that an ‘I’ produces and controls thoughts.
From DE it is clear that there is no separate entity deciding or choosing courses of action. Rather actions happen typically without a previous thought to act in a certain way (this was very clear from the turning of hand exercise). When previous thoughts pop up – from nowhere – actions do not always align with the content of these thoughts (also very clear from turning of hand exercise). So actions are clearly not caused by thoughts. Also – again obviously from a DE perspective – thoughts cannot produce actions any more than sights, sounds or any other raw experiences can. They all just happen, any link between them is not derived from actual experience, but from a thought imposed on actual experience. And even if actions seem to follow from previous thoughts, those thoughts just happened. No separate I started the chain of thoughts and sensations that may have led to actions.
From DE it is clear that there is no separate experiencer of experiences. The experiencing / awareness is in the experience. There is never an experience without awareness or awareness without an experience. Experiences cannot be blocked, altered, prolonged, or created. There is also nothing that has to be done or that can be done to experience something. It just happens all by itself. Also, there is no separate experiencer or action of experiencing to be observed in actual experience. It’s ever only the experience. Statements like ‘I experience X’ or ‘X happens to me’ are mental constructs imposed on the actual experience of X. The direct experience contains nothing more than X.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is based on the belief / mental construct that there is a separate self: a kind of ‘central manager’ that records what happens and is in charge of responding to what happens. It refers to the beliefs that there is a thinker of thoughts, a doer of actions and an experiencer of experiences. These illusory self-referential thoughts pop-up regularly and are typically taken at face value. Looking at direct or actual experience, shows the illusory nature of the content of these thoughts. The self is found nowhere in actual experience and so must be imposed on this experience by thought.
The illusion that there is a separate ‘I’ that thinks, decides, commands the body and experiences life is like a filter through which life is experienced. Like sunglasses coloring actual experience with ‘me-ness’, it frames all experiences. The arising of sensation becomes ‘I feel’, the arising of sound, ‘I hear’, the arising of sight, ‘I see’, and the arising of thought, ‘I think’. Clearly seeing the illusory nature of the self is like the shedding of those sunglasses. The filter is removed and what remains is actual experience. Thoughts, sensations, sights, sounds, smells and tastes arising, evolving and passing away (all on their own).

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Started noting direct experience more often. The labeling of DE (‘thought’, ‘sensation’, ‘sight’, ‘sound’, etc.) happens more frequently. As a result, identification with thoughts and judgments happens less often (or, more correctly, self-referential and judgmental thoughts pop up less frequently).
Really valuable was the realization that not only the self is an illusion but also judgments about experiences – good vs bad experiences. These too are labels imposed on actual experience by thought. There is nothing inherently good or bad, desirable or undesirable in experience. There is great freedom and relief in this understanding: experience happens and it’s all perfectly fine. Any resistance to what is, is the result of labeling the experience as negative and failing to see that this is just a label (applied by a fleeting thought).

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

After reading ‘The gateless gatecrashers’, the realization was there that thoughts and sensations are not initiated and controlled by a mental ‘I’. There was still the belief that ‘I’ was the experiencer of it all. What made the illusory nature of that belief clear was looking at direct experience instead of analyzing with thought. The apple example and following exercises of reporting actual experience was very helpful.
From this perspective it became clear that the witnessing or experiencing is in the experience. It is not an act by a separate entity. It also became clear that thoughts do not cause / control actions and that qualifying experiences as good or bad, desirable or undesirable is the result of thought labeling actual experience. So the realization emerged that there only ever is raw experience unfolding (automatically) and that there is nothing intrinsically good or bad in experiences.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is an illusion. Thoughts do not cause actions – e.g. thought with content ‘I will have a glass of water’ does not automatically lead to drinking a glass of water. Even if it did, that thought (or for example the sensations of thirst that prompted that thought) just popped up out of nowhere. There was no decision / choice to have that thought or sensation.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Same as for decision.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is an illusion. Experiences and actions happen automatically. Responses to the environment over which no one has any control. Actions may (or may not) follow thoughts and sensations (e.g. sensations labeled as urges), but those thoughts and sensations just happened. They were not chosen (freely).

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Same as for decision and free will.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Everything just happens, there is no one controlling experiences or actions. The belief that one controls any of it, is an illusion.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

From direct experience, all that can be said is that experiences manifest. There is no direct experience of what causes these experiences to manifest. They seem to come out of nowhere. The statement that everything is interconnected / interdependent / caused by something else, is the product of a thought (which doesn’t make it false, just not a matter of direct or actual experience).

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing. No one can be blamed or praised since there is no one choosing / deciding on courses of actions. Reality unfolds and everything is part of that.

6) Anything to add?

Do you have any further recommendations? Something to read to deepen the understanding?

Sensations and thoughts of deep gratitude arise for the expert guidance, Rali. How wonderfully selfless!
A thousand times thanks!
Do you live in South-Africa? ‘I’ used to live in Stellenbosch and Johannesburg.

Much love and appreciation,

Mick

[poppyseed]

Hi Mick

Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Do you have any further recommendations? Something to read to deepen the understanding?

I'd suggest the teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
Sydney (est) Australia. 6 am right now
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting.Ilona's is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali