Looking for honesty

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

It may also be helpful for you if you start exploring what comes next: doubt. Here is a wonderful video series by Pernille Damore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_8N331jpA4

I wish I had watched this video when I went through the gate; it would've saved me a lot of grief!

Loving,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

Hello Eden!

Today I woke up, sat in bed to meditate, asked myself ‘Who am I’, and noticed that the feeling of disorientation stopped. The question doesn’t create an existential crisis anymore, it doesn’t really mean anything. Questions are just thoughts, answers are just thoughts. Even this writing is thought. Life is still the same, there wasn’t a dramatic shift or anything. There is just acceptance of what is. I don’t know what happened. Just yesterday before sleeping my husband and I were talking about our doubts associated with realizing there is no self (he has been a seeker too). He had the same doubt feeling but I could clearly see that he knew there was no self. The gateless gate haha.

I was expecting ‘nothing’ to be the answer to the question ‘who is I’. But, for now at least, it doesn't feel honest. There is this, being, happening. Ayda the character doesn’t exist. But the consequence of seeing that is not that big of a deal. When I look back at how my day went, I dont feel like I did this and this and that. Those things just happened and there was no ‘I’ involved. It’s like I forgot to keep track. I will see how this goes next week when I start work haha.

you may continue in the fetter work and work on the second fetter

That would be fantastic

Some days you will see clearly, and during other days, the selfing may be in full force.

This is exactly what happens! And most of the time it’s noticeable as soon as waking up from sleep.

Is there anything else you would like to work on in relation to the illusion of the self?

At this moment I am enjoying sitting and noticing what has become apparent. I don’t have more questions in mind, and re-reading this thread is very helpful in noticing gaps where thoughts are squeezed.

I'll be here with you until the end.

You are truly an angel Eden. Your words are deeply touching. It’s like you are here in this mind and you know exactly what to say. This has been a great experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not and it has clearly never existed.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is a label that sticks to everything that happens. When something happens the self immediately takes ownership over it, it says “it has happened to me”. When the things that happen are thoughts, the label is even stronger. “Those thoughts are mine”, which opens a door to make the self entangled in the thoughts, which feeds them and makes them more powerful. The thoughts are also attached to sensations that arise and the self knits them together to create a story. The story becomes proof that the self exists and thus the illusion of a separate self solidifies. But neither the story nor the self exist, just the illusion of it. It is a very well built mechanism, it works wonderfully! I am not bothered by it. Right now I can see the process of the label of self being sticked to what is happening. Acknowledgement of it happens, but there is no fight.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels peaceful. The difference is that there is acceptance of what is. During this process, there were a lot of moments when thoughts and doubt took over. There was a want of “freedom from”, a struggle to make things not the way they are. A seeking for something more than what is already there. Seeing this is a subtle nuance. As subtle as the sense of self. When I wrote my first post, I was expecting that at the end of this I would be able to shout out loud “I GOT IT”. But it turns out it’s nothing to take pride in. The surrendering I was expecting is just acceptance.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing without thoughts, giving up on conceptual understanding. The question “What is here now, when there is no problem to solve? Can you rest into that? Trust that? Can we scrap our illusory thought world and go straight to direct experience and let it speak for itself, without labels or conceptual understanding?”. It felt like I finally can give up on conceptual understanding and seeing that logical reasoning is not the only tool I have.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Well I know the dictionary definition of making decisions is choosing an option for reality to be. But this is not real. Decisions don't exist and I never made one. I don’t decide what i’m going to do next. It just happens.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is even more illusory than decision somehow. I have no experience of intention. A question instantly raises : so I have no intention of being a good human, a good wife, a good daughter…? No, that is part of the imaginary story. Things just happen.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Funnily enough, free will is the one thing that quickly dropped a couple of years ago. This one was easy to see through before starting seeking. There is no free will.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I needed to observe this questions for a moment, as the self feels very identified with the choices it makes. For example, clothing style choices, home decor choices… They feel like they are choices made based on preferences. But I see those preferences being thoughts. I didn’t choose the preferences, they just happened! So there are no preferences, no choices.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is an illusion. There is no control, no controller. And how nice it is to see it. Another childhood feeling: when you do something and parents ask you, very insistingly, why did you do that? And that question seems so foreign to the child…

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things just sporadically happen. As far as I know it could be magic haha. I can't grasp how it works, nor do I feel like I could. It just does and i’m fine with it.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I’m not responsible for anything. There is nothing responsible.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you so so so so much, Eden. You are an angel. I see the story of the self, and I see how many layers are protecting it into place. It’s a new adventure!

[LostOntology]

Beautiful, Ayda. I’ll respond to the specifics of your post later :) I’ve shared your response with the other guides. One of the guides had the following question:

You said that: "Today I woke up, sat in bed to meditate, asked myself ‘Who am I’"

Is there a body which is woke up in the morning? Is there a body living life?

[Sadcateta997]

You said that: "Today I woke up, sat in bed to meditate, asked myself ‘Who am I’"

Is there a body which is woke up in the morning? Is there a body living life?

There isn’t a body that woke up or that is living life. The eyes open, there is an image of a body, and a though of identification with it. The process of labelling and identification still happens. Should I dig deeper?

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

Welcome home :) As you've seen, there is no gate to crash through. What is here has been here the whole time, all that was needed was to just see it clearly.

Please allow some time for this seeing to settle in. As I said earlier, it may be clearer some days and other days it may feel like you are "selfing" like you never have before! This is all part of the process. During the days that you feel full of doubt and like you've "lost it" notice how things aren't the same. You've seen: you have new insight. The self will ring just a little bit more hollow: see if you can see through the identification with thoughts when it happens.

There sometimes is a "honeymoon" period with seeing through the self. You may feel very calm for a few days to several months after seeing through this illusion, and then you may have some difficult periods that follow. That is natural; there is a settling-in process with these things. You have seen through the core belief that provides the construction of the ego. The "minor" beliefs of the ego will still come and each of those things needs to be individually seen through. Without their core belief of a separate self existing, though, they will be a bit more hollow. Much of our society is built up around the self. Do not be surprised when things trigger old habit patterns. It will take a while for this to settle in! There's a lot of selfing to see through.

Remember: this is just the beginning :)

My personal thoughts:

There is just acceptance of what is. I don’t know what happened. Just yesterday before sleeping my husband and I were talking about our doubts associated with realizing there is no self (he has been a seeker too). He had the same doubt feeling but I could clearly see that he knew there was no self. The gateless gate haha.

yes, the gateless gate! You kept looking and eventually you realized there was nothing there. We never know how long it'll take to drop a belief, but the more you look, the greater the chances of that belief being let go. It's like checking the fridge multiple times for cookies: you need to check like 3-4 times just to be sure even though your senses very clearly tell you that there's nothing there because the mind is not satisfied! "How can it be that there are no cookies!? I want there to be cookies!!" Also, it is a joy to be going through this with your husband. I went through much of the same recently with my partner. Enjoy this journey together :)

I was expecting ‘nothing’ to be the answer to the question ‘who is I’. But, for now at least, it doesn't feel honest. There is this, being, happening. Ayda the character doesn’t exist. But the consequence of seeing that is not that big of a deal. When I look back at how my day went, I dont feel like I did this and this and that. Those things just happened and there was no ‘I’ involved. It’s like I forgot to keep track. I will see how this goes next week when I start work haha.

I love the way that you are going about this. Good luck with work next week :) Lots of opportunities to see where some things may have to be worked through. See those difficult moments as a gift, for they point EXACTLY to where there are remnants of the self still clinging.

That would be fantastic

I'll DM you info on this!

Some days you will see clearly, and during other days, the selfing may be in full force.

This is exactly what happens! And most of the time it’s noticeable as soon as waking up from sleep.

Oh my gosh yes it does, lol. It feels different!

Is there anything else you would like to work on in relation to the illusion of the self?

At this moment I am enjoying sitting and noticing what has become apparent. I don’t have more questions in mind, and re-reading this thread is very helpful in noticing gaps where thoughts are squeezed.

Keep on enjoying and noticing :)

I'll be here with you until the end.

You are truly an angel Eden. Your words are deeply touching. It’s like you are here in this mind and you know exactly what to say. This has been a great experience.

I'm happy to hear that, Ayda. All I did was help you see what was already here. You did all of the necessary seeing. It was simple! Effortless!

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is a label that sticks to everything that happens. When something happens the self immediately takes ownership over it, it says “it has happened to me”. When the things that happen are thoughts, the label is even stronger. “Those thoughts are mine”, which opens a door to make the self entangled in the thoughts, which feeds them and makes them more powerful. The thoughts are also attached to sensations that arise and the self knits them together to create a story. The story becomes proof that the self exists and thus the illusion of a separate self solidifies. But neither the story nor the self exist, just the illusion of it. It is a very well built mechanism, it works wonderfully! I am not bothered by it. Right now I can see the process of the label of self being sticked to what is happening. Acknowledgement of it happens, but there is no fight.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels peaceful. The difference is that there is acceptance of what is. During this process, there were a lot of moments when thoughts and doubt took over. There was a want of “freedom from”, a struggle to make things not the way they are. A seeking for something more than what is already there. Seeing this is a subtle nuance. As subtle as the sense of self. When I wrote my first post, I was expecting that at the end of this I would be able to shout out loud “I GOT IT”. But it turns out it’s nothing to take pride in. The surrendering I was expecting is just acceptance.
It does work wonderfully! But now that you see how it constructs itself, it is impossible to take it as seriously as you previously did. I love the way you are going about this. All the rest, relaxation, acknowledgement of it is such a beautiful and effortless way to see. There is no need to "struggle" and meditate for hours upon hours. All there needs to be is acceptance of what is already here.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing without thoughts, giving up on conceptual understanding. The question “What is here now, when there is no problem to solve? Can you rest into that? Trust that? Can we scrap our illusory thought world and go straight to direct experience and let it speak for itself, without labels or conceptual understanding?”. It felt like I finally can give up on conceptual understanding and seeing that logical reasoning is not the only tool I have.

This experience is so much more than just logical reasoning!

6) Anything to add?

Thank you so so so so much, Eden. You are an angel. I see the story of the self, and I see how many layers are protecting it into place. It’s a new adventure!
[/quote]
:) Lots of love!

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Next steps: Nerina will reach out to you and invite you to some groups that you can join for people who have seen through the self. I'll DM you with my contact info so we can stay in touch if you have any questions. I recommend giving it a few weeks to settle in before you dive into the other fetters trust that you will know when you are ready to continue.

I remember that you said you always found refuge in academia. Knowing this about you: don't fall into the hole of consuming too much content on this stuff. You don't need anything else right now: just be with this, with your direct experience. It may be alluring to now read everything there is about fetter work, etc., but don't strain too much and enjoy what is here now. Those books and videos aren't going anywhere :) Rest and allow yourself to stop seeking.

Haha.. with that said.. here is a wonderful piece of writing that I believe would be helpful for you to read:

Changes at the First Stage Awakening
In the first stage of awakening, the first three fetters are broken.

First, we clearly see through self-illusion. This can happen when we have a period of time where the mind is free of thoughts, and we directly relate to the world non-conceptually using our senses.

Alternately, this can arise when we have a period of time where all of our experiences are related to free us of greed and aversion. Thus, any thoughts that arise are peacefully seen as impersonal, impermanent thoughts, without mistaking them to be truthful or real.

While we view the world in one of these ways, we don't suffer, and we are effortlessly skillful. Life feels simple, easy, and wonderful. Relating to the world in this way makes perfect sense, and there is no reason to live any other way. Even though this experience is simple and enjoyable, there may be a slight ripple of confusion as to what is happening. Your life has never been the effortlessly wonderful before, and that can be slightly disorienting.

Having seen through self-illusion clearly, you also break through the fetters of doubt and attachment to rites and rituals.

When you break the fetter of doubt, it means you now have confidence that mindfulness has gotten you this far, and that it still has more to teach you. You will find that the scales that once covered your eyes have fallen away: wisdom teachings that you once found confusing and impenetrable now make sense.

When the fetter of attachments to rites and rituals breaks, it means you realize that rites and rituals in themselves do not matter. You can't do them to buy your way into "heaven" or Nirvana. They benefit you in their ability to help you be more mindful and see the truth of reality as it is, and you will continue to appreciate them and do them. But ultimately, you know that none of them are necessary for you to awaken or find favor with life.

Turning Increased Sensitivity Into a Story
Although you will see through self-illusion clearly during the first stage of awakening, it doesn't mean you will see through this illusion forever and permanently. Your ego and its delusions will most likely return.

You will fall out of this state of grace, and back into the turmoil of living from your ego. The ego is your story of self, with all of its futuring, pasting, fixed-views, greed, and aversion.

When your ego reappears, it may feel as if you are being cast from heaven into hell. The temporary clarity you had, may even make you more sensitive to everything. Now that you know how good life can be, living in ego feels even more oppressive that it previously was.

This sensitivity is to help you use your body as a compass to mindfully learn and understand what is of the ego and what is not. With this newfound sensitivity, and your continued mindful investigations of your inner experiences, you can continue the process of identifying and letting go of egoic thoughts and habit patterns that no longer serve you.

However, the ego in you will try to turn this experience into a story. It may be a judgmental story: Why did life show me this beautiful reality, only to cast me back into the darkness? It may be a story of self: I had it and now I don't. What did I do wrong?

The skillful way to move forward involves continuing to mindfully see these stroies for what they are: impermanent, impersonal, and frequently false thoughts in the mind. This will help you get back to seeing the illusion of self and keep you walking the mindfulness path to full awakening.

I am Superior Because of My Experience
Another dangerous story the ego will try to convince you of is that "you" awakened. Your ego will use your awakening experience to deceive you into thinking that you are now better and superior to others. Ironically, your awakening experience happened because you saw beyond the illusion of self. But now that the false egoic self has returned as an imagined story of self that you believe, you incorporate this awakening experience into that false story, and become lost in the delusion of arrogance.

When you were free of the illusion of self, it was clear that all life is equally valuable and worthy of our love and care. No one and no being is better or more worthy than anyone else. But now that the ego has returned, comparison has also returned to classify some life forms as better and more deserving than others. Again, the wise response is to mindfully see this story as merely another false and unskillful story of the ego that you do not believe.

The Permanent Shift Around Self Illusion
Although you can still fall back into the delusion of ego, during your awakening experience, you clearly saw through the illusion of self. As a result, even when lost in ego, you maintain an intuition sense that all of these impersonal, changing, unsatisfactory, and temporary things are no longer you.

You cannot be found in your thoughts, emotions, sensations, body, accomplishments, past, future, intentions, the roles you play, and so on. At times, these things still hook you in, confuse you, and cause you to suffer, but when mindful, you maintain an awareness that they are not you.

Thus, the fetters of doubt and attachment to rites and rituals, seem to almost completely drop away. These fetters may rear their heads at times, but rarely remain for long.

In contrast, the fetter of self illusion is all about seeing through this falsehood clearly in a way that impacts you deeply. However, you will most likely then oscillate between living from mindfulness and living from ego. It will not feel as if the illusion of self has permanently dropped away, because it hasn't. The permanent change that results from breaking this fetter is that now when you are trapped in the delusions of ego, you will intuitively know that you are trapped in ego. It’s a big step forward, but not so big that you won’t still suffer greatly once you have attained the first stage of awakening.

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This passage is pulled from this article: https://www.boundlessloveproject.org/ne ... re-all-one

[Sadcateta997]

Eden,

Thank you for your beautiful messages. Once again your words have reached deeply. This forum thread is a precious treasure!

Lots lots lots of love and thankfulness,

Ayda