Simple not Simple

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

I sense that some sensations appear as thought induced and some appear as just sensations with a thought afterwards…

Hmm, if you have sensory input, say a sensation of touch on the back of the neck, there are likely a few milliseconds where it is the direct sensation before thought arrives saying it is a mosquito and the hand rises to brush it away. (or slap it)
Of course, there are many sensations that happen throughout the day that we take no notice of. Those are still responded to with the story that they don't need attention. By the time we are adults (probably well before) the non-response is hard-wired so the story isn't required any more. Some of these have a non-response response because also hard-wired is the idea that nothing can be done about them. (for example, low-level stress) Making them conscious usually leads to 'shadow work'. That is working with repressed issues. In most cases, it isn't necessary to go there.
The sensations that we are interested in are those unpleasant emotions which active and present stories.

o regardless of this process just assume all sensations are thought induced?

Yes. ..but let's focus on those that cause suffering for the moment.

I do find that allowing sensations to remain where they are regardless (whether there is a label attached or not ) helpful

Excellent. Allowing them to remain usually reveals the story behind them.

I'm interested in why you think that you are not there yet?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

The sensations that we are interested in are those unpleasant emotions with active and present stories.

some times sensations turn into “unpleasant” emotions and there is no conscious story attached, then I find myself looking for the story and if I got the “right” story the emotion becomes more intense. I then allow the emotion. But there is a sneaky thought/feeling there is another story hiding under that story.I suppose it’s that onion thing again and a belief the onion peeling is endless…. Also I suppose there is an expectation of the reward of equanimity.

Yes. ..but let's focus on those that cause suffering for the moment.

Its not just unpleasant emotions that seem to cause suffering ..pleasant emotions also can be attached to suffering because they seem to keep you out of the moment by creating expectations and when the expectation is not forth coming they engage the “I never get what I asked Santa Claus for reaction .The victim belief.

I’'m interested in why you think that you are not there yet?

There as in… there? Most likely I have the believe that I am not there yet is from the less frequent but still occurring responses I have from external situations This occurs more often when engaging with others as my communication seems to be either misunderstood by others or misrepresented by me …also occurs with outer circumstances sometimes as well …Today I am actually visiting with family and may go see some old friends ( but also may not) It’s full on…yay. So positive feelings seeing people I love, followed by do I really have to talk to them, followed by do I really need to talk to people at all, can I just grunt or oink as communication and be understood. Or communicate telepathically and use few words?Like a magic Swami ha… it’s not always about the control mechanism sometimes it’s a want of an actual merging with others.Unless that’s a form of thinking I am in control

Thanks

love

Judi

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,
I am adding a p.s after my day today.
After the triggers were recognised and the internal reactions looked at I came to a place that felt like I wasn’t disturbed by people or my stories and their stories or how I was perceived by them or how I perceived them .At first this was interrupted as a negative shut down of emotions or a defence mechanism of the mind but when I kept looking at it …it felt and feels more like … the stories and thoughts are mostly just stories and thoughts.they have no charge to them nor do I feel compelled to figure things out or change anything
Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

there is a sneaky thought/feeling there is another story hiding under that story.

There probably is. None of this is black and white. Always shades..
We don't need to put effort into looking for original or deeply buried stories. To assume that they are there is enough to discredit the necessity of the responses. ..and knowing that if they persist then they will eventually surface.

Also I suppose there is an expectation of the reward of equanimity.

Ah, excellent that you see this...

Its not just unpleasant emotions that seem to cause suffering ..pleasant emotions also can be attached to suffering

Oh, absolutely. Yes, any that solidifies identification will surely invite suffering. ..but these we will deal with later. (they very likely come as desire (and aversion) Joy, happiness seem (to me) to be natural baselines for humans, but feeling good because of taking credit for something...

Most likely I have the believe that I am not there yet is from the less frequent but still occurring responses I have from external situations

Those responses themselves are irrelevant. Do you think that I or any other awakened body doesn't have them? (rhetorical question) What is the response to the response? That is the real issue.
If you see that they happen, then that is enough. That seeing will weaken them and lessen their frequency.
It's those doubts (fetter 2) that are the issue.

Today I am actually visiting with family and may go see some old friends

Ah, the best test and the best opportunity.

do I really have to talk to them, followed by do I really need to talk to people at all, can I just grunt or oink as communication and be understood. Or communicate telepathically and use few words?

Hmm, I 'get' that. This will pass. (probably)
Here, it often seems like I am not there, but words (questions) come out of this mouth, almost like watching a movie.

a want of an actual merging with others.

I find it difficult to have that experience when a really stupid world view is being expressed. That is until I remember that what I'm experiencing is my own projection. Usually compassion arises then.

the stories and thoughts are mostly just stories and thoughts.they have no charge to them nor do I feel compelled to figure things out or change anything

This sounds pretty awake to me. ❤

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

That is until I remember that what I'm experiencing is my own projection.

This is one of the paradox’s that I sort of am stuck in. There are so many paradox’s but most of them don’t feel like stuckness.We project our own individual reality’s on top of reality itself.This can create lots of mistaken concepts on top of other concepts. The first go to for many, including myself is , self improvement ie I will change myself and my thoughts for a more desirable life so my current projections are better.The control and modify the desire thing . There is a lot of this going around in many forms.For instance the most basic one is “Get whatever you want if you believe you already have it… ok this one I find sort of dodgy as we then have lots of bodies going around doing this and causing havoc. . The second version is desire is okay as long as the desire is not personal.The it’s okay if it happens and okay if it doesn’t school of explaining there are “good” desires. The as long as the desire is for the good of the all type of thing. There are others but you get the idea.How can desire be anything but a future projection?How can it be anything but expectation regardless of the intent?This paradox says to me the only doership that is needed is seeing what really is but my doubts come in when this form of doer/non doership looks like laziness indecisiveness apathy fear of living..etc.The word surrender appears, the question appears What is surrender? Fear and resistance appear because then I may be shown the answer through experience and it may not be pleasant! Ha or lol or dang.
Thanks.

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

This is one of the paradox’s that I sort of am stuck in. There are so many paradox’s but most of them don’t feel like stuckness.We project our own individual reality’s on top of reality itself

Ha yes. Take a step back to a wider perspective and this paradox isn't a paradox.
We don't project our reality onto the real reality. Our reality is the only reality.
Having said that, "reality" is a shitty word. Like many (words) it means different things to everybody. i prefer to say actuality.
..but even that is misleading as it is an abstract noun that is (often) taken as a concrete noun.
So let me put is more accurately. Current experience is the only 'thing' that is actual.
We presume that there is something actual 'out there', and there may be, but what is actual (out there) remains a mystery.
Every person, every animal, every insect, every bird, every everything has a unique interpretation of it.
Quantum science says that it only exists when we interact with it. (hard to get the head around that one)
So, let what might be 'out there' remain a mystery and focus on our experiencing. (we won't even say "our experience of it"

This can create lots of mistaken concepts on top of other concepts.

Yes, the moment we attempt to describe or explain it (as if it actually is 'out there') we are in concept land. The land of suffering.

self improvement

Haha, yes. What a crack up. How can we improve what doesn't exist. ..and what it "improvement" anyway?

The second version is desire is okay as long as the desire is not personal.The it’s okay if it happens and okay if it doesn’t school of explaining there are “good” desires. The as long as the desire is for the good of the all type of thing.

All desire is a strengthening of identification with an imaginary something. (and of course instant suffering)

How can desire be anything but a future projection?

Exactly. Isn't the future a concept (forgive me for stating the obvious)

This paradox says to me the only doership that is needed

Is doership an expression of desire?

Fear and resistance appear because then I may be shown the answer through experience and it may not be pleasant!

That fear and resistance would be a gift. An opportunity.

Ha or lol or dang.

Ha, every time I point to something, your next line shows me that you already know it.
Judi, I hope that you have/will consider guiding after your doubt leaves.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good afternoon Vince,

So, let what might be 'out there' remain a mystery and focus on our experiencing. (we won't even say "our experience of it

Exactly but this brings another "inner" paradox ...focusing on "our" experiencing when there is not one experiencing.It's just experiencing.What ever thinks it's an I or me wants to change the experiencing, even the immediate experiencing, labels seem to be part of the natural process of survival mechanisms.Can you experience a body without labels(danger tigers out there) or no danger( no tigers out there) and at the same time not be attached to a body in some way.Feels conflicting...One has to be aware of the practical aspects of being in a body(bus approaching) and not feel protective/attached to the body at the same time.Yes surrender control, drop your weapons..but surrender is not in body/minds control.So I went to trusting and found lots of goblins in that word that brought fear responses lots of emotions and conceptual memories...After all my dribble ,here's some more,I think of humans before they had language, did they only have sensing? Concepts can form without language.They must form with or without language ...sensing can have non verbal concepts that the body has carried around for a long time.Those seem rather tricky.Thoughts are becoming more obvious but non verbal concepts attached to sensing ,what the heck?

Is doership an expression of desire?

yes it is...so anything beyond a body desire:(food shelter water etc) is excess? That's where paradox comes in again.Aren't there natural desires or should those be considered sensed needs and not from the desire virus.

That fear and resistance would be a gift. An opportunity.

Everyday then is a gift then....ha!

Judi, I hope that you have/will consider guiding after your doubt leaves.

Yes and doubt leaves is a good way of putting it, when all the leaves fall off...
Thank so much

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

focusing on "our" experiencing when there is not one experiencing.I

Only language insists that there has to be a subject of experiencing. (it also insists that there has to be an object to be experienced) Neither of these are actual. When we are aware of experiencing there is no one doing it, nor nothing being experienced. These only come into existence when thought about.
Let's see if we can verify this;
Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice thoughts labeling what you see.
Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.
Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?
Go back to simply watching thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, they will get bored and slow down. Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces. They may be milliseconds, but notice them.
There will be no labeling. ..and anyway, the colours, the textures, the shapes, etc will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?
When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that cup is a concept. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use? A concept that includes shape, form, color, what it is intended to be used for.
..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.

What ever thinks it's an I or me wants to change the experiencing,

What we resist persists. So, knowing that change will happen as a result of our involvement in this, we can forget outcomes. Our focus is on NOW. HERE. This.
If wanting to change happens, then ok, it is THIS now, so focus on it. Not the content, but the experience os wanting.

One has to be aware of the practical aspects of being in a body(bus approaching)

Yes. These are useful thoughts. They don't need prompting. They happen.

Concepts can form without language.They must form with or without language .

Yes, and there's no problem with them, unless we get sucked into living out their content. They happen. Simply don't engage with them. (unless you do)

Aren't there natural desires or should those be considered sensed needs and not from the desire virus.

It's irrelevant where they come from. If there's identification with them then there will be suffering.


with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?

Yes there is only seeing

When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that cup is a concept

After seeing everything appears to be a concept.

The details have vanished leaving an impression.

Not sure what you mean by this.Do you mean there is just an impression as in colours and shapes but no separate objects?As that was the impression I had when just seeing.

If wanting to change happens, then ok, it is THIS now, so focus on it. Not the content, but the experience os wanting

When I focus on the experience of wanting and not the content of wanting, wanting doesn't make any sense.

Yes. These are useful thoughts. They don't need prompting. They happen.

Yes I have experienced just happening but this seems to come and go (as does only seeing )so seeking appears to start up again.The wash cycle starts up but the clothes are already clean and dried .So seeking is also a desire or wanting

It's irrelevant where they come from. If there's identification with them then there will be suffering.

So again focus on the experience of wanting but not the content? In all types of desires/wants.The content appears to create the indentification and the identity itself?

Thank you muchly

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

The details have vanished leaving an impression.

Not sure what you mean by this.

i was meaning that the direct experience of seeing gets replaced by concept. As we zoom out the colors and textures fade and it takes form as a cup again.

When I focus on the experience of wanting and not the content of wanting, wanting doesn't make any sense.

Yes, it becomes just sensation and stories.

.So seeking is also a desire or wanting

Yes, absolutely. ..and it grasps for the imaginary future.

The content appears to create the indentification and the identity itself?

Yes. It's a promise of changing the self.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,
"The content appears to create the indentification and the identity itself?"

Yes. It's a promise of changing the self.

Do you mean the content of thought and the identification with content is like a promise or a belief that content/identification has the ability to change the self or I'ness.But as there is no self or I'ness it is also a belief that content is the control and controller of "what is" and thus able to manipulate or change what is?..Sorry self is used in so many ways these days as in "Self" and "self" it's hard to find the words.

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

Do you mean the content of thought and the identification with content is like a promise or a belief that content/identification has the ability to change the self or I'ness. But as there is no self or I'ness it is also a belief that content is the control and controller of "what is" and thus able to manipulate or change what is?

Yes to all of that. The content of thought is usually self-referential. So strengthens identification.
It's that identification that the implied promise of improvement and that implies the existence of control to do this.
We can easily get bogged down with this thought stuff. We don't need to analyse it, we just need to be aware of what is happening and to recognize how we corrupt experience with thoughts.
See if you can isolate and express your doubts about recognizing that the self is only thoughts.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

See if you can isolate and express your doubts about recognizing that the self is only thoughts.

It’s sort of odd really because finding and expressing doubts involves more thoughts which in a sense reinforces the belief that thoughts are the self.There can’t really be any doubts because doubts are only thoughts.And thoughts are only what is happening now and there is no one that needs to change them.

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

It’s sort of odd really because finding and expressing doubts involves more thoughts which in a sense reinforces the belief that thoughts are the self.There can’t really be any doubts because doubts are only thoughts.And thoughts are only what is happening now and there is no one that needs to change them.

You're right of course. ..but I want to know that this is more then thoughts saying this. is it something that you experience?
From what you say then there are no doubts. Is this accurate?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

is it something that you experience?
From what you say then there are no doubts. Is this accurate?

At the moment I answered the question there were no doubts … no seeking or searching….until there was an experience with another person by telephone.This person is a family member who has very extreme anxiety, reactions arose that I noticed, then compassion and understanding arose.Went for a walk with the dog and planning started when I got back. The thought generated feelings that actions must be decided upon and made. I saw these as just thoughts but there is underlying belief that the feeling of equanimity is required as proof of doubtless-ness and selfless-ness
Thanks

love

Judi