Looking for help

[sfranci]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have an intellectual thought that there is no self and no other. I remember reading this in Byron Katie's book over 10 years ago when I first began seeking. I used to believe that this was something that would only happen to a few lucky ones, 1 in a billion. After reading Awake and LU I now feel that it's possible to experience no self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guide that can ask the questions that can allow for the release of the belief that I am a separate self, that the I exists. I see all the mind suffering is associated to the I. I currently experience torture in the mind. I perceive something, it seems to happen automatically. A thought comes in and provides an opinion and when the mind believes that opinion will not be accepted by others, it starts to beat me up. It says over and over that I am a judgemental person, ugly, unkind, negative, unable to love unconditionally and on and on.
I have read the LU book and had a few significant shifts, it feels like the belief that once was solid that I am my body and mind and a separate self is now loosened.
When I sit with the thought there is no self, I feel excited to experience it and sometimes frustrated that I can't feel or fully experience it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Questions that can guide me to continue to loosen the belief in self and guide me to fully experience no self. Someone that can read my answers to questions and guide me based on where my beliefs lie today.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started seeking 12 years ago after experiencing debilitating anxiety. Since then, I have read many books, watched countless hours of Youtube from different teachers, and attended conferences, workshops and retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[pozablo]

Hi sfranci,
Did you see my private message offering to guide you if you're willing to do a face-to-face Zoom or Skype at least once per week?
pablo miller

[sfranci]

Hi Pablo, yes, I am good with a weekly zoom. I don't see a private message. Let me know how to get started.

[pozablo]

Hi Sandra, and thanks for your perseverance. I liked your original post, but responding while I'm travelling might not have been the best idea.
Finally sorta settled, though, so:

When I sit with the thought there is no self, I feel excited to experience it and sometimes frustrated that I can't feel or fully experience it.

The difference between thought and experience is often the hardest to get here.
Like the printed word blue, and the sound of the word blue and the thought blue simply cannot convey the experience that is labelled blue.

If there is no self, is there an experiencer of frustration, or just an experience labelled frustration happening?
If there is no self, is there someone trying to feel an experience of noself, or is there just an experience of trying happening?

If there is just an experience of trying happening, what belief might that trying be based on?

Right now I'm asking for logic and evidence. Mostly though, we'll be dealing with actual experience.
I know, then words would have to be used to describe it, but that's kind of the best we have :-)

p

[sfranci]

Hi Pablo,

No worries to wait until you are settled.

If there is no self, is there an experiencer of frustration, or just an experience labelled frustration happening?
I waited until I experienced frustration to feel this answer and - frustration feels like an air bubble that needs to pop. It's an experience that is happening. Who is experiencing it? The mind wants to say it is observing as it is labelling it and adding more thoughts to it.

If there is no self, is there someone trying to feel an experience of noself, or is there just an experience of trying happening?
The experience of trying is happening, the mind quickly pipes in with a thought - You, the you see in the mirror, is experiencing it.

If there is just an experience of trying happening, what belief might that trying to be based on?
The belief that I need to find a way to awaken, that I am not awake. The belief that I am currently associated with self and I want to experience not feeling a separate self.

[pozablo]

Sandra,

No worries to wait until you are settled.

Thanks! From now on, if I won't be able to respond to your posts within 24 hours I'll do my best to give you as much notice as possible.

The experience of trying is happening, the mind quickly pipes in with a thought - You, the you see in the mirror, is experiencing it.

Right! Deeply seated beliefs (especially one that is held by probably everybody you've ever known) do not change overnight. That whole thing about "Roshi held up one finger and SunYu was immediately enlightened" is just a sales pitch.
Have you ever heard the phrase "neurons that fire together, wire together"? If not, Google it please.

I waited until I experienced frustration to feel this answer and - frustration feels like an air bubble that needs to pop. It's an experience that is happening. Who is experiencing it? The mind wants to say it is observing as it is labelling it and adding more thoughts to it.

So, is there a you that experienced frustration, or was frustration just happening?

The belief that I need to find a way to awaken, that I am not awake. The belief that I am currently associated with self and I want to experience not feeling a separate self.

So, is there a you that wants to be free from the experience of separate self, or is there just a feeling of desire that the brain labels as 'yours'?

Just watch the ever-flowing experience of what is going on in "your" mind ..Now.
Note that Now is not a time between past and future, Now is just what

is

.

Is it possible that a "self" that experiences, does, thinks, decides, etc etc is just an (almost universal) superstition?

When you receive this, notice how the things coming from your end are put in a box.

Please do the same when quoting anything coming from this end.
Just highlight it and click the Quote button just below the subject line at the top.

Cheers,
/p

[pozablo]

oops, I forgot to use the Preview function below, and the word "is" came out confusingly misplaced.

oops.

[sfranci]

So, is there a you that experienced frustration, or was frustration just happening?

in the now moment, it feels more true to say I experienced frustration. Then I ask - who is experiencing frustration and I get silence and the frustration subsides or there is a gap in experiencing it.

So, is there a you that wants to be free from the experience of separate self, or is there just a feeling of desire that the brain labels as 'yours'?

The brain labels it as mine, that feels true now.
The mind is a label machine, yes.

Is it possible that a "self" that experiences, does, thinks, decides, etc etc is just an (almost universal) superstition?

it's possible.
This thought brought fear and 2 thoughts with it.
1. Am i going down a rabbit hole here where I end up getting mentally unstable and then end up in the medical care. This fear comes from witnessing many family members struggle with mental health and watching how the medical system makes it worse. A fear of loss of control.

2. If I fully believe this, I will be all alone. It has been my experience for most of my life to feel different and hard to relate to others.

[pozablo]

Thanks Sandra. Good observations!

Your fears about losing control and becoming mentally unstable are completely normal. And of course, your situation of having experienced debilitating anxiety, and having family members with mental health struggles, makes it even more frightening.

On the other hand, you’ve said that you are looking

for the release of the belief that I am a separate self, that the I exists. I see all the mind suffering is associated to the I. I currently experience torture in the mind.

And that you have

read many books, watched countless hours of Youtube from different teachers, and attended conferences, workshops and retreats…… I used to believe that this was something that would only happen to a few lucky ones, 1 in a billion. After reading Awake and LU I now feel that it's possible to experience no self.

In all of those conferences, retreats, workshops etc,, what evidence did you gather regarding the idea that that becoming free from the superstition of separate self would increase the risk of mental stability, or cause a sense of separation and loneliness, or more torture in the mind?
Please take some time with this question, and explain thoroughly.

Then I ask - who is experiencing frustration and I get silence and the frustration subsides or there is a gap in experiencing it.

Can you ask that question again, watch closely, and tell me more about what happens there?

/p

[pozablo]

Hi Sandra,
Are you still here?
/p

[sfranci]

Hi Pablo,
Yes, I am here. I waited until I had time alone to answer the questions today.

In all of those conferences, retreats, workshops etc,, what evidence did you gather regarding the idea that that becoming free from the superstition of separate self would increase the risk of mental stability, or cause a sense of separation and loneliness, or more torture in the mind?

The first thing that the mind comes up with is that one of my first teachers did often talk about how he spent years thinking he had a mental illness following an out-of-body experience when he was young. He told the story that the few people he told reacted with concern for his mental well-being.

Other than that story, I don't have any evidence that I gathered that being free from the illusion of self would cause me to be alone or mentally ill.

What I do have plenty of evidence of is how identifying with a self has caused many members of my family to suffer greatly and I have also my own evidence of suffering from the stories that I identify with.

In fact, the story that says I will end up all alone one day has caused me a lot of suffering for years. It has really sucked the joy out of life.

Actually, the first time I heard Byron Katie talk about there is no self and no other, I felt excitement and a sense of truth. At the time I could not even intellectualize what that meant, but I was drawn to it.

Can you ask that question again, watch closely, and tell me more about what happens there?

I have been asking this who question a lot lately.
I ask when I feel judgment come up about someone in my life - I ask who is judging. This question immediately silences the mind and the body also becomes still for a moment.

When I think of a judgment about someone that is usually followed by resentment for them and then self-hatred for having the judgment.
I ask the same who question - who is resenting, who is hating...
And the same silence comes about.

[pozablo]

Great! Thank you for giving that such deep consideration.

I hear you about how judgements of others happen and then judgements of yourself follow.
And it is a miserable self-perpetuating experience. That is, until it is clearly seen that there is no "you" doing it-- it's just what the brain (specifically what is called the Default Mode Network) does when there is a belief that "you" are judged by others to be inferior.

Let's talk!
I'm on the east coast of the U.S. right now, and my time is pretty flexible.
Where are you and when would you like to Zoom or Skype--your time?

/p

[sfranci]

I am in Canada EST. Tues I have 3 PM or wed 330Pm or anytime after 5PM tues-thurs

[pozablo]

Let's do Tuesday 3pm.'

You can send an invitation for Skype or Zoom or Google Meet (which I've never used but would be interested in trying) to pozablo@gmail.com.
/p

[sfranci]

ok I sent a zoom invite.