Good. Yes, exactly. Everything simply arises. We have no idea how. It is a big mystery. A paradox, as you say.not choices at all but just what is arising. And then the « i » takes credit for that by creating an appropriate commentary.
- it feels freeing, the i can drop the illusion it has control which is a big part of the struggle, but it seems like this is how « i » / the mind perceived it. It feels immediate, arising now and always now. It feels like it is not a quality of any sort.. if it is just perceived in DE as what is. It doesn’t feel like anything if i don’t frame it in any way. It doesn’t feel like anything untill the i interprets it.How does it FEEL to see this?
- the mind keeps refering back to that place. Like when the mind is thinking, there is this supposition that it is heard by something somewhere. Adressed to « the me » but that place the mind keeps refering back to isn’t there. It has no ground. The mind is speaking to itself. There is no self hearing what the mind says, there is nothing « in here ».Can you find any separate "self" anywhere?
- I realize i’m tiptoeing around it by describing. What you are saying points right at it. It makes the body feel a bunch of ways (heartbeat went higher as if it is preparing for something)How does it FEEL to see there is no self?
- the river is not choosing anything. The river is arising due to snow which came from the clouds which was created by water in the sea etc etc. There is no autonomous entity, the whole thing is an ever changing pattern as you say. Everything is the cause of everything else. There aren’t any separate events. It’s like searching for the cause of things and going back and back and back and there is never one beginning. The water, rocks, flow of the river, etc are all one happening. It is never the same, it’s completely impermanent.Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
- No. i can take the perspective that i am making choices, that « i » take credit for what is happening and interpret it as « my choice ». But right now, it is impossible to see that as true. It’s all just happening and unfolding, everything reacting to everything else. The whole environment, is affecting itself. Cause and consequence is not really accurate but it illustrates the point.Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
- I decided to cook pasta today. It felt like a choice but in reality i chose pasta because what i wanted to eat in the first place was not there (that wasn’t a choice either it just arose), and so i « chose » pasta. In reality the preferences aren’t mine. I don’t know where they come from. Maybe habits, parents, just like the river flowing because of the snow in the mountains. It’s not a decision in itself. It’s just what is arising and totally out of control.Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.
- right now, it is impossible to see an autonomous entity. There is just the flow. The someone isn’t anywhere. It’s happening, nothing is autonomous as in separate from every other thing. The whole thing is it these words are happenings just like the cars going by or my cat walking.Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
- No… agency is totally gone right now and the mind is just being itself with it’s things (saying « am i deceiving myself? » « isn’t saying there is no choice just an escape from responsibilities »)but it’s impossible to unsee how that is also just what’s arising just like everything that i usually perceive as outside of my control like « « the external world » »Can anything be found for which "you" are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
EXACTLY!!! That is how it FEELS to SEE no self. At least, as far as it can be described in words.How does it FEEL to see there is no self?
- I realize i’m tiptoeing around it by describing. What you are saying points right at it. It makes the body feel a bunch of ways (heartbeat went higher as if it is preparing for something)
- There is no way to put that in words. But it makes everything go silent and still. Like the world stops. A sense of being extremely present arises but it is without the duality of someone being present. It’s just aliveness and clarity. But it has no quality that the mind could ever interpret and describe. There is no way to describe it. But something is happening, and even thqt feels wrong to say because it is not something.
YES!!! This!There is just the flow. The someone isn’t anywhere. It’s happening, nothing is autonomous as in separate from every other thing. The whole thing is it these words are happenings
- The story is not real. The self is not real. However, there is still a « but » or an insatisfaction with that answer. It is obvious that it’s the case but as we talked about earlier it’s like the i still believes it during the day to day experience (while interacting with people etc). Thinking still identifies as the self, untill it is investigated. But each time it is, it’s obviously empty and always is. And each time that is done, it is seen that the i just does what it does, it identifies with things and that’s okay. However again, it doesn’t feel like the loop is closed. Does that make any sense?Can you say 100% that there is no separate "self" and never has been?
- yes it makes total sense, it takes the doer out of the equation. thank you again for what you are doing. It is so apreciated! LOVINGWe like to call it "life life-ing."
Loving, (and now you see why I sign this way - ing is all there is)
No, you just believe lies again. Why?the i just does what it does, it identifies with things
- right…No. None at all. There's no "self" to do any identifying with anything. It doesn't exist.
- I don’t know why. Sometimes it is clearly seen that there is no self and sometimes i believe the lie again and get self-deceived. But there is no one to believe in the lies, so it’s paradoxical…No, you just believe lies again. Why?
-that made a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing. Expansion-contraction or whatever we want to call it really has been noticed through the past months. It has been very helpful to have someone like you point out when there is self deception/clinging beliefs like the last post you made. I will continue investigating those clinging beliefs and would love to continue investigating that with you, untill it is decided that it is no longer what is needed.
-thank you so much, will do that tomorrow.Look for Fetter Free on Facebook & tell them I sent you. I think that meeting is today.
let me know if you'd like to try the "final" questions.
- In DE, there isn’t any self separate from anything else. The whole thing is one process, there is no difference between cars passing by and thoughts in the head, or the noise of a river and the story of thoughts. It’s all happening, the story of self is a story that has no actual ground in DE. It is nowhere to be seen when investigated. Self, me, i, is nowhere because it doesn’t exist. It never has and never will. It can only be believed in but it will never exist as a « real » thing. There are no « things ».1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
- How does it feel to see this: it feels calm and free. It can’t be described through the mind and language. But there is this sense that everything is just happening, without anything being in anyone’s control. It’s all unfolding moment to moment. Sensations such as thinking and feeling the body aren’t perceived as different then any other senses. There is no difference between other people talking and the thoughts thinking. It’s all just happening, with no illusion of choice-agency « in here » affecting anything at all. That story has never been real.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
- Continuous investigations into the questions of free will, choice and agency as well as well as investigating the duality-separation that we tend to believe exists. The inquiries all pointed to the absence of those very clearly, and since it was already perceived before this dialogue started (self inquiry, meditation…) , it just made it way more real on a moment to moment basis. What « made me look » is a hard answer to give because it is always right here. It feels like a permission to let things show themselves how they really are.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
- Decision is an interpretation we make of a particular situation. It is when we as a self feel like we choose/decide something. On investigation, it seems more like there aren’t any choices made. Life just happens. I don’t choose to breathe or to regulate the body’s temperature. However i think i choose what to wear or who to talk to. It does seem like there is no actual difference between any of those, except that for the latter we have a commentary and a belief about how it is us as a self that had any thing to do with the action taken. But that commentary is just describing- making a story convenient with the actions taken. It doesn’t actually affect anything.5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
- intention is similar to choice, in the sense that it is a perceived sense of control on a situation. Intention is the belief that the i can affect the situation in any way. I can set an intention to be more aware of the sounds around me right now, and in fact by doing so « i »pick up more sounds around me. But there is no way to prove in direct experience that that intention was really a choice that the self made. It’s just what is happening. Just like thinking, it is not in anyone’s control. Who knows why the intention to pay attention to sound was set.. It makes the « i » relate to the moment in a different way, but doesn’t really affect anything because an intention doesn’t actually exist except as the mind-thought structure.Describe intention & give examples from experience.
- free will is a concept the self entertains: the perceived sense of being an free operating agent in an « outside world », the perceived choice to modify-affect experience. We can perceive free will in thinking (thinking we can choose-affect-control thoughts with other thoughts), in perceived choices such as « what should i do tonight », or « what should i eat ». It gives the individual the sense that it has control and agency over situations. It can be deconstructed and there is no way to actually prove that free will exists. On the contrary the opposite is what seems to be the case: there is no choice, because there is no one choosing. There is nothing that can modify-affect experience-life because there is nothing outside of experience itself-life. There is no free operating agent, it is like thinking you are driving a car but it turns out it’s a self driving car.Describe free will & give examples from experience.
- choice is « applyed free will » in the sense that free will is a concept about feeling like the chooser of choices, a free agent with choice. Choice is the perceived sense that we can orient the self towards a situation in contrast to another. Choosing what to eat, choosing what to wear, what to do, what to talk about etc… it’s always in relation to other perceived situations that we « could » orient ourselves to. So the root is the same as the other questions: there needs to be the illusion of a separate self for there to be the illusion of choice and someone choosing. In DE, it can be seen that no choices are made, it’s just unfolding and « choice » is actually a commentary-story on what is happening.Describe choice & give examples from experience.
- same as the previous answers, control also relates to how the self believes it can have free will- choose - affect experience and so maintain a sense of being in control, which means things are going as the self thinks they should. As long as it is going as the self believes things should go, then a sense of control can be maintained. But nothing is in our control. I can feel like i control my breathing, but breathing goes on without my control. I can believe i control the thinking, but thinking goes on without my control. I can’t control anything that will happen in the next second. Nothing is in the « i »’s control. Because there is no self, so no choice, so no control on perceived external situations. Control implies something affects and modifies willingly something else. But since there is not anything separate from anything else, it can’t really exist.Describe control & give examples from experience.
- nothing is in my responsibility, since there is no self to be responsible of any choice (which doesn’t actually exist). Responsibility is a sense of being in control, of being the free agent that chooses and therefore should be responsible for the consequences. Since no one is actually there, nothing is really responsible but also we could say life is responsible for itself, even if responsible implies someone. I can feel like i am responsible for my actions, but my actions are just what arose of the situation, they weren’t really « mine ». It is impossible to tell why, but actions are just taken, things are being done. But no one deciding anything. Only a story that it is the case.What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
- THANK YOU, this has been incredibly helpful so far and nothing is finished of course. But a deep deep thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving your time and energy to answering and showing ME MY self deceptions ;). If you perceive some more please share, also do you think i should join the ten fetters group now? Much love!6) Anything to add?
Is that a typo? Did you mean no self?There is no free operating agent, it is like thinking you are driving a car but it turns out it’s a self driving car.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests
