Flying

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. Finally I would say, an essay is still far less complex than a human being or our universe - which certainly were not designed by a self. Yes, that IS mind-boggling, I will admit.
Having said that: you wouldn't go so far as saying that thoughts (of self or other kind) have no effect on the world, would you? Or am I in the wrong realm again with that question?

Depends how you mean it. "The world" ...is there a fixed one of those? How would we know of a "world" at all without conceptualisations about one? What is "the world" in direct experience?

But didn't Buddha say "with our thoughts we make the world"?

Perhaps he was getting at the role of thoughts here? But does a self create thoughts? Do thoughts create a self?

. Dynamic” spontaneously made “me” think “OMG, even MORE difficult to handle”. I know, I know, this “me” does not exist and it was one more opportunity to hug anxiety and tell it to relax.

:-) I understand.

I've found a very nice and light-hearted recorded talk that somehow relates to where we are at the moment. It's on YouTube and takes yaboyt half an hour of listening. But it may be useful. Do you mind if I share the link with you?

Best wishes

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

Depends how you mean it. "The world" ...is there a fixed one of those? How would we know of a "world" at all without conceptualisations about one? What is "the world" in direct experience?

But didn't Buddha say "with our thoughts we make the world"?

Perhaps he was getting at the role of thoughts here? But does a self create thoughts? Do thoughts create a self?

Let me chew on this a bit. Currently I feel a bit overwhelmed, find it hard to find the right words (or they seem inappropriate), I also have a few additional challenges in my daily routine.

I've found a very nice and light-hearted recorded talk that somehow relates to where we are at the moment. It's on YouTube and takes yaboyt half an hour of listening. But it may be useful. Do you mind if I share the link with you?

Please do!

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

None of your words are inappropriate so don't worry about that. I know this inquiry can be perplexing but it doesn't continue to seem so. At some point it makes sense

Here is that link I mentioned. Don't be put off by the first minute or two. It's good as it gets going.

https://youtu.be/mHBZqEOwpnM


Jon

[Aguila]

Oh, cool, I love Alan Watts - thank you!

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

the talk is wonderful and left me with a big smile! :-)

None of your words are inappropriate so don't worry about that. I know this inquiry can be perplexing but it doesn't continue to seem so. At some point it makes sense

At times it feels like it is just too much. Like a plate of spaghetti and “I” try to follow each noodle and make sense of it - instead of maybe just calling it (and enjoying) spaghetti.

Depends how you mean it. "The world" ...is there a fixed one of those?

Mmh. In truth I cannot say if it is fixed since only the 5 senses provide some kind of image. The “I” tries to find fixed elements that can be used as stepstones to navigate it. To avoid the free fall?

How would we know of a "world" at all without conceptualisations about one? What is "the world" in direct experience?

Well, just taste, smell, touch, sight and hearing.

But didn't Buddha say "with our thoughts we make the world"?

Perhaps he was getting at the role of thoughts here? But does a self create thoughts? Do thoughts create a self?

Thoughts create a self. Which is a dizzying thought. Is this body then getting dizzy?

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. the talk is wonderful and left me with a big smile! :-)

It made me smile too, and laugh out loud once or twice.

. At times it feels like it is just too much. Like a plate of spaghetti and “I” try to follow each noodle and make sense of it - instead of maybe just calling it (and enjoying) spaghetti.

Yes! Spaghetti rocks! :-)

. The “I” tries to find fixed elements that can be used as stepstones to navigate it. To avoid the free fall?

It's more that there tends to be a fear of 'free fall: than that there is any actual danger. Perhaps it might be better to say that thinking is habitual rather than that a real entity "tries to find fixed elements" ,( although the series of thoughts that lead to this impression may seem quite convincing).

. Thoughts create a self. Which is a dizzying thought. Is this body then getting dizzy?

You're doing some very good investigation..

All best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

. The “I” tries to find fixed elements that can be used as stepstones to navigate it. To avoid the free fall?

It's more that there tends to be a fear of 'free fall: than that there is any actual danger. Perhaps it might be better to say that thinking is habitual rather than that a real entity "tries to find fixed elements" ,( although the series of thoughts that lead to this impression may seem quite convincing).

Yes.
I realize that somehow I never follow through completely, the “I” always is hidden in some corner.

It just is so simple and familiar to use “I” instead of “a whirlwind of thoughts”.

You're doing some very good investigation..

Thank you. Feels rather clumsy.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. It just is so simple and familiar to use “I” instead of “a whirlwind of thoughts”

When is it ever otherwise? We are not exactly encouraged to forget "I". Could that have something to do with how familiar the term seems?

. I realize that somehow I never follow through completely, the “I” always is hidden in some corner

I can't do this for you Aguila. I can point but you have to look, if that's what you want to do? Look to see where this apparent "I" is.


Love

Jon

[Aguila]

When is it ever otherwise? We are not exactly encouraged to forget "I". Could that have something to do with how familiar the term seems?

Of course. The whole “cognitive world”, especially in the west, seems to be constructed around the term. Thoughts assembling thoughts assembling thoughts.

. I realize that somehow I never follow through completely, the “I” always is hidden in some corner

I can't do this for you Aguila. I can point but you have to look, if that's what you want to do? Look to see where this apparent "I" is.

I am fully aware.
Besides repeating the exercise of “wandering through body perceptions” every once in a while, today I have been following the “I” around. Or rather the I-thoughts. Like soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them.
I-thoughts have been chased.
With closer inspection these thoughts often pop up after perceptions (seeing, hearing… or other thoughts) and kind of make a story of the perceptions, judging them, assigning them value or meaning.

All the best

Aguila

[Aguila]

In other words : judgments are thoughts which are part of the concept of "I". They seemingly give it substance. "I" am different from "you" because "I" like cherries and "you" don't.

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. judgments are thoughts which are part of the concept of "I". They seemingly give it substance. "I" am different from "you" because "I" like cherries and "you" don't.

Yes! That's true.

. today I have been following the “I” around. Or rather the I-thoughts. Like soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them.
I-thoughts have been chased.
With closer inspection these thoughts often pop up after perceptions (seeing, hearing… or other thoughts) and kind of make a story of the perceptions, judging them, assigning them value or meaning.

Excellent work. I like what you said about "soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them".

Before I was guided, many 'I' thoughts tended to be taken very seriously along with the unquestioned idea that there was a "me" "trying to survive". After a while those thoughts were taken far less seriously, as it was recognised that they were not refering to anything real. . An imagined self did not have to try to survive because it was imagined. Thoughts relating to this imagined self were far less worrisome.


All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. judgments are thoughts which are part of the concept of "I". They seemingly give it substance. "I" am different from "you" because "I" like cherries and "you" don't.

Yes! That's true.

. today I have been following the “I” around. Or rather the I-thoughts. Like soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them.
I-thoughts have been chased.
With closer inspection these thoughts often pop up after perceptions (seeing, hearing… or other thoughts) and kind of make a story of the perceptions, judging them, assigning them value or meaning.

Excellent work. I like what you said about "soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them".

Before I was guided, many 'I' thoughts tended to be taken very seriously along with the unquestioned idea that there was a "me" "trying to survive". After a while those thoughts were taken far less seriously, as it was recognised that they were not refering to anything real. . An imagined self did not have to try to survive because it was imagined. Thoughts relating to this imagined self were far less worrisome.


All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

There is also something that can be tried, if thoughts seem to be continuous.

Notice thoughts appearing, as you have been.

Though there can be an impression of 'spaghetti' notice that it tends to be one thought or image appearing at a time. The flow of thoughts may be very fast, or slower, but at any one time there tends to be one prevailing idea that appears and then is replaced by the next.

Now see if it is possible to find or notice a gap, however brief, between the end of one thought and the start of the next?

It doesn't matter how long it short this gap is,. just see if one can be found . If a gap seems to last for a few moments, rest in it (so to speak) or savour it.


All best

Jon

[Aguila]

Excellent work. I like what you said about "soap bubbles that you can burst by touching them".

Before I was guided, many 'I' thoughts tended to be taken very seriously along with the unquestioned idea that there was a "me" "trying to survive". After a while those thoughts were taken far less seriously, as it was recognised that they were not refering to anything real. . An imagined self did not have to try to survive because it was imagined. Thoughts relating to this imagined self were far less worrisome.

It is good to hear that someone else has had similar experiences. :-) And yes, it relaxes the body if the thoughts are recognized to be thoughts. Survival is not a topic then. Things are just ok as they are then.

Hi Aguila

There is also something that can be tried, if thoughts seem to be continuous.

Notice thoughts appearing, as you have been.

Though there can be an impression of 'spaghetti' notice that it tends to be one thought or image appearing at a time. The flow of thoughts may be very fast, or slower, but at any one time there tends to be one prevailing idea that appears and then is replaced by the next.

Now see if it is possible to find or notice a gap, however brief, between the end of one thought and the start of the next?

It doesn't matter how long it short this gap is,. just see if one can be found . If a gap seems to last for a few moments, rest in it (so to speak) or savour it.

Oh yes, I know this exercise - thanks for reminding me! Indeed it is one thought after another - sometimes so many that they seem to overlap, but on close inspection there are always clean breaks, sometimes very brief (but also the thoughts are often just flashes). Sometimes enough for a sigh. Sometimes a complete moment.

I keep wondering: you offer quite an array of exercises, both for “looking” and to relax the analytical/thinking mind, to put it somehow - thank you, by the way! I am just unsure how to best proceed with them: choose one or two to practice regularly, choose along the day what comes to mind every now and then, wait for one to get “hooked”, ... What do you suggest?

All the best
Aguila

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

I keep coming back to the exercise of the white cup - especially the variation of “that man on the street”. I find it intriguing. Yes, it “works” surprisingly well with colours, it is somewhat harder with forms or even people - but in any case I have to really concentrate to even remember the instructions. THIS is what I find most puzzling!

All the best

Aguila