Suffering in the world

[Marcus1144]

Read the paragraph again.

Lots of homework suggested.

Marinade and rest in this for a day or two and let me know how it goes.

What is coming up.

Can you see this and rest in this contentment?

[Stina]

Sorry Marcus, it was a very spontaneous reaction. I understood my homework. Stina

[Marcus1144]

Stina,

A nice big deep breath.

How’s the homework going?

Have you managed to see and then rest in seeing free of a seer? Words struggle to point here.

What now happens when I ask you…

Can you tell me about how experience happens?

Free will can be a good way to look at this.

Does someone control what is happening and what happens?

I’m not asking for philosophy.

Free will is simply a direction to approach the question of how life is happening if there is no independent objective self.

Let me know if that doesn’t make sense.

Thanks

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus, I wrote the answer and when I was done, I somehow deleted it. I have to write it again. I apologize. Stina

[Marcus1144]

Oh no!

Not sure how that happened but it’s always best to use a word processor or notes app to write it out as this forum can sometimes crash or be prone to deleting.

Take your time

[Stina]

I thank You, Marcus. I was hurrying, my son wanted to use the computer. I will write again later, when everybody sleeps.

[Stina]

Hallo Marcus. Thank you for your messages.

Have you managed to see and then rest in seeing free of a seer? Words struggle to point here.

I went back to seeing. And I needed some help. I was listening to a podcast, LU meeting from July 2016 and Ilonka’s pointing helped me to understand. It felt like I understood it in the moment when she talked. It is not about having a grand visual experience. (I thought, because I don’t see what other see, it must be wrong. Some people talk about seeing the world “flat”, like a screen.) I tried and tried. I was someone who tries to see something, some mystical visual experience. But it is just seeing. Seeing is happening. There is no border between the seen and the seeing. I can’t find anyone who sees.

I always ask myself, is there something to see if seeing is not happening?

The other aspect of seeing is the interpretation. Without the knowledge, the mind, the data, I see only shapes and colors and the shapes are kind of 2D. For example, when I look at the cupboard, I can’t see the other side, I see only the front side. I assume, there is more in the back. Because I know there is.

You say that you have seen that there is no separate self.

Only some glimpses, I guess.

I do not want to accept something, only because somebody says so.

I went back to the beginning, to investigate the difference between fantasy and reality. I get it. Only what can be seen, heard, touched smelled or tasted is real. Everything else is only a thought.

“I” is only a thought, because I can't find it. When I look for me, I find only sensations.

The question comes, how would a child function in the world without the sense of self. I can’t even imagine it.

Can you play with being content with this realisation for now?

I intellectually understand that realization happens, when we start to separate the thought from the sensual experience.

I can not find the one who sees, hears, feels, only seeing hearing, touching, smelling, tasting happens.

Your heart beating as you say. Breathe breathing. Life living.
Who seeks?

Seeking is happening.

Can you tell me about how experience happens?

Interesting question. It's like some movement or shift of energy first, afterwards we interpret it, describe it, words only point to what happened. It is a way of communicating that can never describe the real experience.

Does someone control what is happening and what happens?

I thought my whole life, that I control what is happening and what will happen in my life. Now, I am not so sure. Supposedly, the latest research in neurosciences shows, that our brain is signaling, that decision happens 6 seconds before the mind decides. I can't comprehend it, but I come to the conclusion again and again, I am not that powerful as I thought. Somehow, everything is happening. Like the plant is growing, rain is falling, spring is coming, my life is enfolding. It removes the heaviness from my shoulders, the feeling of guilt, I should be somewhere else doing something else. Thank you for this realization Marcus. Stina

[Marcus1144]

Stina,

I would like to respond to some of your points more fully in the morning, including your question.

For now, I'm curious, where would you like this enquiry to go?

From this side, it seems like you've seen, even if only a glimpse as you say.

The seeing is coming through on some of the other questions I've asked.

I have a little concern (but cannot know) that some of what you're writing is piggy-backing a little on what others may have reported as you refer back to other experiences and teachers sometimes - rather than letting the written transmission arise as a report of what is truly present.

There's maybe some doubts and a sense that the seeing is fragile or not established.

I'm happy to stay here and we can explore the doubts and look at some ways of expanding the enquiry.

But I'm keen to know what comes up in your sense experience when I ask - where would you like this to go?

Thanks

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus, I tried to marinade in experiencing the world today.

When I hear a sound, for example bird chirping outside, I can not pretend, I do not know, what the sound is, I automatically have the picture of the bird on my mind screen. But I tried to focus, really hear. And I could hear so much more.

While looking at the world around me, I tried to see everything, every little detail, until I felt nauseous, but it is interesting, I usually see much less, because my mind is running.

I concentrated at the body sensations, the aches and pains, stiffness in my back, pain in my knee. While resting at the sofa, I could feel the blood pulsating in my body. I love the colorful show on my mind screen, when my eyes are closed. The purple and yellow color and the whirlpool of "something"; I am not sure, is it light, or energy, what I can see with my eyes closed(?).

I was touching the bark of the trees, the fur of my dog, the texture of the dough while preparing meal, the soil in the garden while planting some plant roots, touching the roots, even talking to the plants.

I was smelling the freshly brewed coffee, the soil under my feet, the moss in the forest, the cold air in the morning.

I was watching my thoughts coming and leaving, my fears. My father has some health issues, my old fears are coming back.

While exercising in the evening, I had to ask myself, if I have no control over my life and life is happening, why bother? Why to put effort into anything? The impulse to exercise is probably part of life happening, isn't it?

I sometimes feel “nuts”.

Thank you, Marcus.

Stina

[Stina]

Hi Marcus, it looks like we wrote in the same moment, funny.

I have a little concern (but cannot know) that some of what you're writing is piggy-backing a little on what others may have reported as you refer back to other experiences and teachers sometimes - rather than letting the written transmission arise as a report of what is truly present.

Your are right, I have these doubts too, that I kind of learned the language or I try to understand the structure behind the deep looking. Ilonka says it too, stop reading, watching videos, think for yourself.

There's maybe some doubts and a sense that the seeing is fragile or not established.

I agree.

I'm happy to stay here and we can explore the doubts and look at some ways of expanding the enquiry.

But I'm keen to know what comes up in your sense experience when I ask - where would you like this to go?

I ordered the book from Ilona, "Liberation unleashed" and started to read it today, in order to understand the process. You sense it correctly, I look for something to lean on, to bring me some clarity. I jump from confusion to letting go and trying. Mind, feeling, mind feeling. It does not mean, that I don' t trust you, it is my nature, to doublecheck everything. It was my job, I guess, to collect the data, find some sense in it, make a conclusion and move on. The deep looking is strange, new, I am avoiding it my whole life.

I would like to go through the gateless gate before I die. :-)

Thank you Marcus. Stina

[Stina]

Good morning, Marcus. We have such a beautiful morning here, in western Europe. The sun looks like a huge red ball. But the clouds are coming.

Marcus, I tell you honestly, what do I feel today, now. I am sick of the "spiritual bullshit". I am sick of it. I feel more liberated, when I look around and see, what is there to do. When I do dishes, laudry, plant plants, help my kids with homework.

I came to this conclusion. I will read Ilonka's book, take a pen and paper and write. I will do it alone. Is it all right? We can stop this exchange or take a break. How you wish. Maybe you can help somebody else.

There is something about Ilona and Elena, I know, they found the truth. I must do it. Just do it. Alone.

Thank you for your time and effort, I really appreciate it.

P.S. I am listening recently to Jed McKenna's book, the first one of the trilogy about spirituality. I find myself in some of the students from the book. I see my own stupidity. I investigated Jed McKenna, just because Ilona mentioned it in one of her interviews. It is typical of me. I recognize my own patterns. It is time now to go inward. :-)

Have a nice day!

Stina

[Stina]

Holy shit! I am hollow. Costume. Character, I have created and I am feeding with my life force all my life. That’s why I became mother and caring for others, it was the only thing that made sense to me. I have to “digest it”. Have a nice day, Marcus.

[Marcus1144]

Lots happening for you today it seems!

Stay present with it all.

I am here as an assistant and be present.

Let it all flood out like you are.

The anger, the confusion, the pain, the laughter, the delight.

This is where the paradigm shift can really be nicely integrated.

Equanimity.

All is welcome.

No one to resist.

Nothing to defend.

Simply everything is welcome.

To know life for what it is.

To recognise impulses for what they are.

To experience thought for what it is.

To know stories for what they are.

All valid, compassion for it all.

But it is SEEN for what it is.

Everything is simply as it is.

If you need to take a break, that's fine, welcome all that arises.

If the impulse to walk away is here, check its coming from a true impulse and not resistance to SEE THIS.

It's so very simple.

We make it so very hard.

If you want you can tell me.

Who is the 'one' who wants to make it through the gate, before the end of her life?

Can you detect a faint echo of a belly laugh in this posture of struggle.

Why not just SEE this now?

[Stina]

OMG Marcus, it is the character, Stina. She wants to go through the gate. I don't have to go anywhere, because I am already here. I always was and always will be. Just this. Thank you so much for sticking with me, Marcus. Your words, those three last lines. Like gentle slap in the face. The glasses went down. Thank you so much, Marcus.

[Marcus1144]

Happy to be here!

Haha! marvellous! Nicely worded!

So what will Stina do now free of her quest to reach to the formidable Gateless gate?

Time to play the dance of freedom?

Excuse the poetry.

Marcus ;)