Liberation from self

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Do you still believe in a separate entity, in a you, Francesca, living a separate life ?

So, sitting down and examining the direct experience of being, there is no separate entity, a Francesca. The sensations of a body are experienced, thoughts are experienced, but in direct experience there is no self. What is here is a habit of thought that attributes all sensations, thoughts and perceptions as happening to a Francesca. There is a sensation that is connected to the thought "me", that is felt in the heart, but it is only tied to the thought "me". Without the thought "me", there is no sensation that is a "me". When looking for the self what arises is a blankness. In reality there is only the sensations, thoughts and perceptions being experienced. What is experiencing them is unknown, but it exists and it is real. There has been the assumption that Francesca is the experiencer but that is not accurate. It is only the thoughts that bring into existence the Francesca as the experiencer. As far as living a separate life, I'm not entirely clear about this question. Today, walking along there was a thought of how strange the experience of viewing everything from the perspective of a separate entity was and that everyone (well, almost everyone) experienced life this way. And how interesting it would be to experience life from a different perspective. Not sure what that would be like but opening up to the possibility of a different way to experience life was interesting. So, it seems the question "is there a separate self" asks if there is a separate entity experiencing life and no, there is not a separate entity experiencing life. It seems that there is living in terms of sensations, energy, thoughts and perceptions being experienced.
Thank you for a very helpful exercise.
Francesca

[bretharte]

I wanted to add a bit more to what was written above. It seems that what is necessary to do to weaken the belief in the self is to be very aware and vigilant towards self thoughts. They are so incredibly fast, incessant and automatic. Do you have any suggestions about this?
Thanks again,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Yes, it is a mystery. The knowing of "what is" is done by no one. There is no more to it : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations, and thinking. There is no more to "what is".

Are you expecting the cessation of thoughts about me ?
Are you expecting the cessation of the mental images of the body, the world ?

Thoughts about Santa Claus continue to arise but you don't believe in the existence of Santa. It is the same for the separate self, thoughts continue to show up about it, but it is know for sure that is does not exist. In other words, the illusion continues to be but you are not deluded. It is like the illusion of a sun turning around the earth : it is seen like that but you know for sure that it is the earth which is turning around the sun.

After having said that, I think you are ready for the final questions. Anyway, there is a possibility to continue the deepening of the investigation after the gate.

Do you want to answer to the final questions ?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Are you expecting the cessation of thoughts about me ?

Yes, I was expecting some diminution in the thoughts about me. It is astonishing that having the direct experience of no self, and seeing that it is all made from thought doesn't change anything about the thoughts. They keep coming endlessly and the world is still experienced as if from the point of view of a me.

Are you expecting the cessation of the mental images of the body, the world ?

No, I'm not expecting that, because there is a body and there is a world that is experienced. It seems as I said yesterday that what is needed now is just continued noticing of the "I" thoughts and more attention to direct experience to weaken the thought structures.
I am not yet ready to answer the final questions. It feels like the reality is known but it is not established yet. You mentioned that there is a possibility to continue the deepening of the investigation after the gate. What are referring to? I don't want to take up any more of your time than is necessary, but I feel so unsure and really need more reinforcement. Let me know what you think and thank you again for all your help and wisdom.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Yes, I was expecting some diminution in the thoughts about me. It is astonishing that having the direct experience of no self, and seeing that it is all made from thought doesn't change anything about the thoughts. They keep coming endlessly and the world is still experienced as if from the point of view of a me.

Yes, it is normal because there are old habits and conditionings still operating. The brain is operating with the old software, it takes time to settle on the new software.
Thoughts about me, mine continue to happen but you know for sure that these are only thoughts pointing to nothing in particular.

No, I'm not expecting that, because there is a body and there is a world that is experienced. It seems as I said yesterday that what is needed now is just continued noticing of the "I" thoughts and more attention to direct experience to weaken the thought structures.

The goal of this dialog is not to weaken thoughts or whatever, it is only to see that there is no separate self, to see that a thought is just a thought, an appearance Is just an appearance.

I am not yet ready to answer the final questions. It feels like the reality is known but it is not established yet.

Is there any expectation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?
Is there any change expected in the experience of what is happening ?

You mentioned that there is a possibility to continue the deepening of the investigation after the gate. What are referring to?

There is a forum of deepening the seeing here on LU and you can follow the LU facebook groups.

I don't want to take up any more of your time than is necessary, but I feel so unsure and really need more reinforcement. Let me know what you think and thank you again for all your help and wisdom.

Writing here is just an unfolding, there is no effort for it. Are you practicing during all your activities all day long 24/7? Looking at what is going on and seeing if there is someone which intervenes in the activities is the clue to ascertain what is seen.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Is there any expectation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

Yes, there is an expectation of seeing through the illusion of the separate self. Is that not the purpose of these questions and exercises? The expectation is that it will be clear that life is not happening to a self, that life is just happening. This is seen only

Is there any change expected in the experience of what is happening ?

briefly when examining the direct experience.
No, there is no change expected in what is happening - that will remain the same. Only there will be no ownership of what is happening.

Writing here is just an unfolding, there is no effort for it.

Thank you, I am very appreciative of your willingness and patience with me.

Are you practicing during all your activities all day long 24/7?

Yes, I am attempting to be aware while going about the normal daily activities to see what is actually happening and what is being added on by thought.

Looking at what is going on and seeing if there is someone which intervenes in the activities is the clue to ascertain what is seen.

This is a helpful suggestion about what specifically to be looking at.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, there is an expectation of seeing through the illusion of the separate self. Is that not the purpose of these questions and exercises? The expectation is that it will be clear that life is not happening to a self, that life is just happening. This is seen only

Yes. Is life happening to a self in the day to day experience ? Look
Is all what is showing up meant for you, for a separate self ? or is a separate self, Francesca part of the show?

briefly when examining the direct experience.
No, there is no change expected in what is happening - that will remain the same. Only there will be no ownership of what is happening.

Oho, this is a big one,

does "what is happening belong to you?

Are interpretations of "what is happening" done by a separate self, you?

Thank you, I am very appreciative of your willingness and patience with me.

You are welcome.

Yes, I am attempting to be aware while going about the normal daily activities to see what is actually happening and what is being added on by thought.

Being aware does not need a "doing", it is natural and ordinary, there is no effort to it. Try to not be aware, by the way. The practice is to be as direct experience, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations, thinking (without leaning on the content of thoughts).

This is a helpful suggestion about what specifically to be looking at.

Example of preparing breakfast, look at what is going on : the play of your hands, the movement of your feet, ... and have a question in mind during the action : is there someone, Francesca, a self, a me giving orders to hands and feet ? Is there someone doing the activities? The answer must be seen through looking.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi Warissem,

Yes. Is life happening to a self in the day to day experience ?

As I am noticing throughout the day, everything is just occurring, walking, moving hands, whatever. Before, I believed that I was making these things happen, but upon paying attention, they are just happening, I am not making them happen. I don't know how they happen. The understanding that thoughts, which seem to be the initiator of action, are not being controlled by me, keeps showing that there is no one in control. Movements are happening, but there is no one in control.

Is all what is showing up meant for you, for a separate self ? or is a separate self, Francesca part of the show?

This is a very intriguing question. So, Francesca is obviously something that is known in thought, therefore, as you say, part of the show. But, like talking about Santa Claus, a fictitious entity. This is helpful as a way to categorize her.

Are interpretations of "what is happening" done by a separate self, you?

Certainly, there are interpretations that what is happening is happening to a separate self, but again, these are just thoughts assigning what is happening to a separate self.

Being aware does not need a "doing", it is natural and ordinary, there is no effort to it. Try to not be aware, by the way. The practice is to be as direct experience, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations, thinking (without leaning on the content of thoughts).

You are right, awareness is automatic. Spending as much time as possible focusing on direct experience is key.

Example of preparing breakfast, look at what is going on : the play of your hands, the movement of your feet, ... and have a question in mind during the action : is there someone, Francesca, a self, a me giving orders to hands and feet ? Is there someone doing the activities? The answer must be seen through looking.

I touched on this up above. No one is giving orders, the movements are just occurring somehow.
Very useful questions and pointers on how to proceed and what to pay attention to.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

You have done a good job.

Are you expecting more than what is?

Is there any lasting doubt about seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Are you expecting more than what is?

Is there any lasting doubt about seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

No, I am not expecting anything other than what is and there is no doubt that the separate self is only a thought, not real. Thank you for all your help and guidance. I would like to join the forum that you have mentioned to continue the exploration.
Much gratitude,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

These are the questions usually asked to close a thread. Ponder on each of them then elaborate on your answers.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
I am not feeling well today and would like to answer your questions tomorrow when I have more energy and am feeling better.
Thanks for your understanding.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Take time for it.

I wih you a fast recovery

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Still not well today. Am working on the questions but would like to take more time and finish them tomorrow.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good evening

Wish you a good recovery

Warissem