Requesting a guide.

[Vivien]

It is amazing to notice that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, because in the past I was completely submerged in thought, held inside and within in rather than observing it and it was not known that it was just a thought happening.

Yes, that's great. Now, as I mentioned before, this exercise is just a tool. We are not aiming to watch thoughts 24/7. Rather, it's a tool to help to do the inquiry. Since real inquiry happens in the 'mode' of watching thoughts. this is very important. Seeing no self doesn't equate to watching thoughts 24/7. Rather, in this state of mind can we really look and inquire.

So you can stay with this for some time, so strengthen this muscle, before we start to look and inquire again, but from 'here'.

[IainB]

Hi Vivien,

We are not aiming to watch thoughts 24/7. Rather, it's a tool to help to do the inquiry.

Yes, earlier I made the rookie error that to see thoughts in this way, and to no longer simply be asleep in thoughts, was something to be got and grabbed, a shift that meant an achievement or a new special power for me.

For a time there were much less thoughts, as if thought had been 'cought out' and so embryonic thoughts did not develop into a full image or concept. As they were seen to not hold the hypnotic realness that was previously believed.

But of course this was all about Ian/me/I, but now with this special ability when it came to the relationship with thought. I appropriated the excercise and gripped it desperately hoping it was some achievement in the next step of seeking. I seem to do that.

It did not last for long, and I soon went back to thought being taken as real and submerged within each. All that being said, I will keep gently and persistently being from this place where I see there is no current thought, and watching for the next thought forming and it's content known. Or I catch myself deep in a thought, but it is remembered 'I am just having this thought'.

Rather than the grip of seeking and getting, I will do this from a place of it being a tool, a 'mode' of watching to then enquire further.

[Vivien]

Yes, please do so. Stay with this for a few days, to develop a 'muscle', and then we will look for doership from this 'point of view'.

[IainB]

Hi V,

It's been some days so I wanted to write.

When the thought is noticed and seen, the thought tends to come to a conclusion, then there is the gap.

The gap is noticed for a while and then usually there is a forgetting, and it is the next thought that triggers remembering that a thought is taking place. Then the thought subsides and the gap is observed.

Each waking moment is equally an opportunity to watch in this way. Sometimes there is forgetting for some hours, other times there are more intense periods of watching.

Sometimes a shocking thought arises, or a thought that jars with the circumstances of the moment. These stand out, and I am immediately brought back to remembering these are thoughts.

I'm kinda setting out the exercise here, and not drawing conclusions from it. It is good to be in that poised place, with everything as it is, waiting and seeing what thought will come next.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

The gap is noticed for a while and then usually there is a forgetting, and it is the next thought that triggers remembering that a thought is taking place. Then the thought subsides and the gap is observed.

Now, in the gap watch like a hawk to see the moment of the arising thought.
Catch the thought in the very moment when it arises.
Not thinking about it AFTER, but in the very moment when it arrives.
SEE it arising.
Make sure you don't mistake a commenting thought or a reminder thought "oh just a new thought arose", but seeing it in the very moment as it appears.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien

[IainB]

This is such an powerful point. It's great to be able to do this. I really appreciate your support. I like it.

So, a few points. This really does take deep focus and effort. Your muscle analogy is very relevant. All that I am is poised, focused, waiting, watching. I relax and breathe as some jaw and lip clenching is common. Eyes open and eyes closed both good. And like a hawk, thanks.

Poised deep focus ready and waiting and looking intently, again and again. Too hard and the thought does not come (or a thought comes referencing the excersize) there needs to be some gentleness while still watching intently.

Then an image or words appear in me, known to me, are known.

It is completely unknown what thought content will emerge. In that poised deep looking, any doubt that what will emerge is controlled or initiate or originates or done by or from me is dispelled.

So this is powerful.

With love,

[Vivien]

Good work :)

Poised deep focus ready and waiting and looking intently, again and again. Too hard and the thought does not come (or a thought comes referencing the excersize)

Now, watch even the thought that is referencing the exercise to arise. See even this thought in the very moment it appears. It doesn't matter what the content is, what matters is to see it arise.

[IainB]

Hey V,

I did this lots. Happy to do lots more.

I tend to end up dwelling in that space always just before a thought arises. In the gap so to speak. In watching intently for the arising, the arising seems naturally held off.

Thoughts do arise, and many seem to be cought at the beginning where there is a slipping into a thought, then bang, the content is known.

Is this good or do I need to adjust anything?

I enjoy you guiding, and me clienting, and I am greatful to you.

[IainB]

Yesterday there was the following seeing: I see that even when the exercise is relaxed from, and I just allow thoughts as before, thought no longer feels as real, compelling or submerging, after doing lots of arising hunting. Perhaps I just repeat this until the body drops.

However this morning from earliest awareness thought submersion with enveloping rapid fire thoughts are back with avengance. So I will focus on thought arising hunting with hawk like doggedness.

[IainB]

I look look look many times from that space where no thought has composed, towards the shapes and energies (of course this is analogy, there are no shapes and energies but I to try to share experience) that somehow then end up as a thought.

Thoughts tend to be automatically 'relaxed' into, submersion occurs, thoughts are fully known and given great attention, rather than simply passing by nonchalantly. This big attention pull seems to mask that arising transition point. This isn't an excuse to not hunt for that arising point though - I like doing that and I'm quite into it.

As I look, the sheer unknowability of what thought will appear next is striking. Patterns and characters and events reoccur seemingly, rather than completely new thoughts. This 'on repeat' aspect of thought might contribute to the thought that these are 'my thoughts' about me. Of course, as only one thought is ever known, all ideas that the thought occurred before, is a good thought or a bad thought or my thought, must be yet other thoughts.

There may be some wider opportunity here also. To really break apart that I/me/mine attacked by bad thoughts enamourer by good thoughts, just led and consumed by thought in general.

Or perhaps that is about me wanting something. I'll just keep looking as that is simple.

[Vivien]

There may be some wider opportunity here also. To really break apart that I/me/mine attacked by bad thoughts enamourer by good thoughts, just led and consumed by thought in general.

well, it's not about not having bad thoughts, and having only pleasant ones.
rather, are you thinking thoughts?
Are you doing it?

Watch and see what is it that you DO, actually do to think a thought. Do you do anything?
is any thought your doing?

V

[IainB]

Hi V,

I wanted to reply. I have good time to look each day.

Do you do anything?
is any thought your doing?

So there is a 'knowing' that the thoughts that appear are not my doing. I know the point before a thought is known. I look like a hawk with no idea of what thought will appear. Nothing can be found that contributes to the doing of the thought.

Then when I find myself in thought, the thought may dissipate and instead it is known 'I had no doing in that thought'. This feels like more of a 'knowing' rather than a thought as it is not thought images or thought words.

It is good to return again and again reliabily to this 'knowing' that I had no doing in the thoughts that appeared or will appear next?

Thanks, Iain

[Vivien]

Look very carefully... is this knowing appears as words of "this thought just appeared, it's not my doing"?
so is the 'knowing' happens with words? or it's utterly wordless?

Zoom in very closely and look if this is wordless knowing or not.

[IainB]

I’m cautious about using terms such as knowing, but it seems a fair way to share that felt sense of both hawklike watching: ‘I don’t know and cannot influence what the next thought will be’ and ‘I had no doing in that thought which just appeared’.

That same hawk like readiness again and again for thought arising seems close to the knowing that I did nothing about the thought appearing.

It is a wordless knowing distinct from thought.

In the gap between thoughts, colour sound and sensation all are known while the arising of the next thought is watched for. When the thought comes, colour sound and sensation ‘glaze over’, the focus softens, as I attend to the content of the thought. Then I leave the thought, and there is the felt sense knowing/insight that I did not do the thought I was briefly submerged in. Colour sound and sensation are known as it is also known that I did not do the thought that visited.

The words ‘I did not do the thought’ can of course appear in thought content, but this knowing does not need a thought.

With love

[Vivien]

Thank you for your nice description.

Then I leave the thought, and there is the felt sense knowing/insight that I did not do the thought I was briefly submerged in.

OK, so you didn't make that thought to appear... and what about leaving that thought? Is that your doing?