Deep Looking - Noel

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Great. We wait for eventual comments from other guides.

Be patient

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Thanks to the guides that are helping to clarify more and more. These are the questions :

Is there an expectation that conditioning will stop playing once the illusion is seen trough?

You spoke about

"A going back and forth from seeing the no-separate self to again feeling like there is a separate self."

How that which is going back and forth is experienced exactly?

Elaborate on your answers.

Best for you

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi Noel

I hope you are going well.

I am waiting for your answers.

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Is there an expectation that conditioning will stop playing once the illusion is seen through?
When looking closer – yes it is now seen that there is an expectation for the conditioning to lessen

How is that which is going back and forth is experienced exactly?
So awareness has to focus for the illusion of separate self to be seen through. For example I need to remind myself “this is just a thought” . Also awareness needs to look to see when it gets tied up on conceptual thought stream. Remember to go back to the 5 senses.




PS apologize for late replies- we had an Ice storm for 3 days here with power out for 4~5 days. Now dealing with busted pipe.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

So awareness has to focus for the illusion of separate self to be seen through.

What is awareness in direct experience ?

For example I need to remind myself “this is just a thought” . Also awareness needs to look to see when it gets tied up on conceptual thought stream. Remember to go back to the 5 senses.

Is there a link between you and awareness?
Who or what is remembering ? Have you done the investigation about thoughts ?

What is your mother tongue ? I want to know if there is a problem of language.

I think, there is a need to continue this dialogue if you are committed to see the truth.

Warissem

[Noel_2]

What is awareness in direct experience ?
awareness is everything. Everything is happening inside of awareness. Thoughts, hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling all happening inside awareness.

Is there a link between you and awareness? I am that awareness


Who or what is remembering ?
this is a bit tricky for me. I can see that remembering is a thought. And Thoughts happen in awareness.

Have you done the investigation about thoughts ?
there must still be some confusion around thoughts.

My mother tongue is English. Yes I want to continue this dialog. There is still some confusion but I am committed to seeing through all illusions.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

awareness is everything. Everything is happening inside of awareness. Thoughts, hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling all happening inside awareness.

Is it the experience of here now or is it what you read in books or watched in videos ?

I am that awareness

There is coloration of Vedanta in your answer. It is important to know that awareness is not personal, it is universal and neutral. it does not like and dislike. Do you see that?

Who or what is remembering ?

this is a bit tricky for me. I can see that remembering is a thought. And Thoughts happen in awareness.

Yes

there must still be some confusion around thoughts.

What kind of confusions? Give examples we can investigate together.

My mother tongue is English. Yes I want to continue this dialog. There is still some confusion but I am committed to seeing through all illusions.

Glad to hear about your commitment to this quest.

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

awareness is everything. Everything is happening inside of awareness. Thoughts, hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling all happening inside awareness.
Is it the experience of here now or is it what you read in books or watched in videos ?

This is what I mean by “when I focus”. If I slow down and look, I can see my thoughts and am aware of my 5 sense sensations. When I asked myself “how am I aware of my thoughts and my 5 senses?”. Then I could see these are all happening inside awareness.

I am that awareness
There is coloration of Vedanta in your answer. It is important to know that awareness is not personal, it is universal and neutral. it does not like and dislike. Do you see that?

Only intellectually at this point. But I get glimpses. Then everything snaps back to my old conditioned thinking.

there must still be some confusion around thoughts.
What kind of confusions? Give examples we can investigate together.
For example: expecting something to be different after seeing through the separate self. When I looked closer I could see this belief was just a thought happening.

Another example is getting caught up in my thoughts. I am now catching myself, albeit not always, getting caught up in thoughts instead of just being present with the 5 senses. Sometimes thoughts are necessary of course.. but I am seeing how often I become focused on a thought stream that is not really needed in that moment.

Another example: I still catch myself believing some of my thoughts. Then I have to say to myself “this is just a thought”.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

This is what I mean by “when I focus”. If I slow down and look, I can see my thoughts and am aware of my 5 sense sensations. When I asked myself “how am I aware of my thoughts and my 5 senses?”. Then I could see these are all happening inside awareness.

There is no need to ask about how it happens, you know that you are aware, this is all for it.

Only intellectually at this point. But I get glimpses. Then everything snaps back to my old conditioned thinking.

Is “something” other than awareness knows about old conditioned thoughts? Look

For example: expecting something to be different after seeing through the separate self. When I looked closer I could see this belief was just a thought happening.

Yes, it is only a thought about unrealistic expectations.

Another example is getting caught up in my thoughts. I am now catching myself, albeit not always, getting caught up in thoughts instead of just being present with the 5 senses.
Sometimes thoughts are necessary of course.. but I am seeing how often I become focused on a thought stream that is not really needed in that moment.

Yes, being caught in thoughts happens even after having seen through the illusion of a separate self.

Another example: I still catch myself believing some of my thoughts. Then I have to say to myself “this is just a thought”.

Yes, thought is just a thought.

Here is an exercise about thoughts :

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Is “something” other than awareness knows about old conditioned thoughts? Look
When I look – there is only awareness. Everything is arising within awareness. Now I see what you mean. Even the conditioning is arising in awareness.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
The color red is experienced

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Wow I see what you mean. The label green does NOT have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. When I look the label has nothing to do with reality. The label is just another thought. When I look more deeply I see experience arising and that I really do not know what ANYTHING is. Experience is just happening.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
The label, any label, overlays what the actual experience is.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
No. the experience of redness is the same no matter the label. Makes me think of that Shakespeare quote: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Upon looking it is now seen that labels have no affect whatsoever on reality. We could use jibberish to label everything and the experience would be the same. Well maybe some laughter would be added. 😊

PS this was a really fun exercise.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

When I look – there is only awareness.

There is no you looking, awareness is looking at itself.

Everything is arising within awareness. Now I see what you mean. Even the conditioning is arising in awareness.

Yes, great.

Great observations about the labels exercise.

There is an exercise to deepen the seeing of labels and thoughts.

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

what about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know what you find out, pondering on the questions in blue and giving answers to them.

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.
what about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The thought contents are labels like “apple” and then descriptors like “Red, round, firm, good smell.” These are all thoughts and not direct experience.


Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Apple is a label which is just a thought. So there is something here but I really don’t know what it is.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Hmm “apple” is just a thought arising. As for the object it refers to, there is an experience arising when I look upon the object referred to as “apple” when I touch or smell or taste this object. The only experience of the word “apple” is the thought arising. “apple” is not the direct experience.

What is being experienced is a compulsion to label the apple and even label with descriptors the experience of holding, tasting and smelling the apple. When slowing down I can see these labels and or descriptions are not the direct experience. The direct experience is ineffable.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Great observations.

Is it clear that a you, Noel, a separate self are non existant outside of thoughts ?

Did a separate self exist ?

Will a separate self exist ?

Look at babies and see how a belief in a separate self is constructed. Can you recall something about that ?

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Is it clear that a you, Noel, a separate self are non existent outside of thoughts ?
When I look closely I can not find a “noel” outside of thought. So then I ask what is here. All I get is direct experience arising within awareness. There is awareness but not a separate me character.


Did a separate self exist ? Will a separate self exist ?
Upon deep looking it is seen a “separate self” never existed and never will.


Look at babies and see how a belief in a separate self is constructed. Can you recall something about that ?
I don’t have an actual memory going back that far. However being called a name over and over by the parents maybe the start of the process of identifying as the body and then a separate me.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Do you want to look at something in particular ?

Is there a lasting doubt about seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

Warissem