Only conceptually passed the gate - Need help through it for real

[BeingAware]

Good evening Vince,

What is conviction? How is it experienced?

Conviction is made of thought.

As always with these questions, report from experience. No theory.
Now, looking in experience (actually the memory of experience) locate the sensation (or emotion) and look at the thoughts associated with it. Then dismiss (temporarily) the thoughts - put them in the background, and observe if the sensations change.

Thought is fueled by belief or identification in/with it.
Sensations/feelings dissipate when detached from thought.

I have come to understand that the sense of self is simply a collection of thoughts, emotions, and labels that constantly change

Would you say that this is a source of a SENSE of self?

Yes, this collection of thoughts and also the patterns of thoughts and every day "doing" fuels the sense of self.
The patterns in every day life has a "me"-shaped hole in it, like a groove that the usual doings of every day life fits into and perpetuates the idea of this separate self named "T".

Hmmm...
Could this be the "attachments" that I hear referenced in these discussions?

Do you imagine that there is a "truly" you?

No. Not at all. That was a careless expression. There is an illusion of a separate self named "T", when that illusion falls away there will be no self, no person left, only emptiness.

How does "taking credit" manifest? What are the sensations and thoughts that attract the label "credit"?

Very very subtle labels (thoughts) provoke a sensation/feeling.
Not the gross thoughts, the obvious narration that I hear in my head right now as I type these words. Much more subtle.
For example; Someone laughs at something I said, very subtly a label "pride" comes in and brings a fluttering sensation in the chest. This combination is interpreted by me as "taking credit", as thought/mind saying "I made a joke and made someone laugh".

Is it possible that seeing through the illusion and having a paradigm shift are not connected?

This, I think, is the crux of it.
Have I seen through the illusion? Or have I just looked for the illusion and not found it?
There has never been the slightest "Aha!"-moment. It has just been like solving a basic mathematical problem.
1+2=3, yeah ok.
Direct experience experiment + direct experience = No separate self, ok.

One could argue that I'm expecting too much, sure. I'm absolutely not expecting any kind of fireworks, just.. something.
I've checked that the stove isn't on several times but STILL every time I leave the house there's this feeling that the stove is somehow on. When do I KNOW it isn't on?

The brief at LU is to focus on the 1st fetter - recognizing that self is a concept. My experience is that if this is 'properly' done, then other fetters will weaken or even fall.
The shift that you seek will happen when all of the necessary conditions are present and aligned. We don't know what they are, but shuffling around the investigation makes it likely to happen.
Do you have it in mind that the last time that you searched for a self that one wasn't found?
with this in mind, is there any point in going and looking again?

Well, I think maybe in my case, being a very analytical person might require some extra work perhaps. I don't think this is always a binary experience as in: looking and not finding a self - BOOM! Bob's your uncle.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm sincerely honest when I say that something, maybe intuition, is pointing me to keep chasing the "me"-feeling.
When I walk to work, Thought: "he/she looked at me" Inquiry: "who did they look at? who is here?"
Someone asks me for a task, Thought: "I don't know if I'm able to live up to their expectation" Inquiry: "Who? Who isn't able to live up to expectations? IS there someone, anything here?"

the sense of self is simply a collection of thoughts, emotions, and labels that constantly change

So now we are focussing on why we don't believe this. ..or is it that our conditioning (to respond to these things) is n conflict with what we know of the sense of self?[/quote]

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here.
Our conditioning (the groove I wrote about above) definitely snags us up quickly and we follow the beaten path as if on autopilot.

I will attempt a clumsy analogy to summarize. Driving a car with stick shift.
I've read all the instructions and I completely understand the theory of stick shift driving.
I've started the car a couple of times but there's something with connecting the drag in the clutch that doesn't quite happen.
I'm burning the clutch here because I feel soon, very soon I'll understand what this combination of shift, clutch and drag I've read about and understand intellectually amounts to.

[vinceschubert]

This is disconcerting. i did a big long post last night in response to you only to find it not here tonight. i am too tired to give it appropriate attention now (it's 12:20am) We'll see what tomorrow brings.

love

vince

[BeingAware]

That does sound frustrating, that's the second time that's happened.
No hurry for my sake. Take the time you need.

Love
T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Conviction is made of thought.

Not only thought. Obviously, if we have to describe it we get thought stories, but there is a feeling component to it. As usual, look in experience to do this. Find something that you are absolutely convinced of and as you think about it, see if you can identify sensations linked to it.

Thought is fueled by belief or identification in/with it.

This one is interesting. "thought is fuelled by belief.." - isn't a big part of belief thought?
Does conviction and belief share the feeling component?
The tricky thing with this stuff is to recognize that what we describe isn't what we experience.
Identification is a good example. When we describe it we talk about how we believe that "I am (something)" but the actual experience is an emotion. The sense of pride when we are complimented. The anger/sadness when we are insulted. etc..

The patterns in every day life has a "me"-shaped hole in it, like a groove that the usual doings of every day life fits into and perpetuates the idea of this separate self named "T".

Yes, that conditioning has well established pathways in the brain. It is an efficiency measure, after all, we don't need to learn how to tie our shoelaces every time.
Yes, that groove can be a confirmation of the existence of a self - or not. It's not the groove that is the issue, it's the identification that happens that is.
If that groove were to continue, but instead of it confirming a self (identification) it were to be seen as the remnants of past conditioning, then no identification happens. Oh, and that groove will eventually be replaced by a more adaptive one, but it does take time (even though time is a concept)

Could this be the "attachments" that I hear referenced in these discussions?

How is attachment experienced by T?

There is an illusion of a separate self named "T", when that illusion falls away there will be no self,

When the DELUSION is seen through there will only be illusion.
Is there a self when the illusion is present?
..and if there was never a self and now it is seen, what is different?

Very very subtle labels (thoughts) provoke a sensation/feeling.

Ah, so it would be good if we recognized when we use labels.
In fact, this brings us to something more fundamental. Opinions...
Opinions are judgements. Is it possible to program in an alarm that goes off every time we have an opinion about something?

There has never been the slightest "Aha!"-moment. It has just been like solving a basic mathematical problem.
1+2=3, yeah ok.

Maybe you are not an AHA kind of guy. The 'scientific' mind usually has logic on a pedestal.
The subtle changes that you have mentioned may be the way it will be all the way. But you will know when you have 'got it'.

there's this feeling that the stove is somehow on. When do I KNOW it isn't on?

You never KNOW that it isn't on. You just reach a point where you trust that it isn't.

looking and not finding a self

Yeah. I've always had trouble with that one. If you don't find it, does it mean that it's still hidden or that it doesn't exist?
What I did find was stories. Many stories that I identified with. Whole chapters about preferences and habits and foibles. i think that you have found this too?

I'm burning the clutch here because I feel soon, very soon I'll understand what this combination of shift, clutch and drag I've read about and understand intellectually amounts to.

Good. i had that feeling before it happened.

with love

vince

[BeingAware]

Good evening Vince,

Not only thought. Obviously, if we have to describe it we get thought stories, but there is a feeling component to it. As usual, look in experience to do this. Find something that you are absolutely convinced of and as you think about it, see if you can identify sensations linked to it.

I get agreement or dissagreement, a feeling of right or wrong.

This one is interesting. "thought is fuelled by belief.." - isn't a big part of belief thought?
Does conviction and belief share the feeling component?
The tricky thing with this stuff is to recognize that what we describe isn't what we experience.
Identification is a good example. When we describe it we talk about how we believe that "I am (something)" but the actual experience is an emotion. The sense of pride when we are complimented. The anger/sadness when we are insulted. etc..

Yes, absolutely, a big part of belief is thought, and they share some kind of feeling/sensation component. That thing that sort of gets the train of thought going. The experience when you sit and focus on your breath and a thought arises that you feel something about, agree or strongly disagree and immediately theres another thought appearing that's related to that first thought you engaged interest in. Now you're lost in thought.

My mind thrives gorging on its thoughts. I can feel the erratic reactions from it when I focus on actively ignoring all thoughts or just dismiss them immediately.
Thought seems key. Less identification with it. Less interest in it. Maybe those are a good way of practice.

How is attachment experienced by T?

A varying bouquet of fear mostly. Thought, of course, paired with different fear sensations, often fear of loss: "What if I loose my relationship with my daughter", "What if I let down my beloved wife".
These of course reinforce the identification, deepening that groove.

When the DELUSION is seen through there will only be illusion.
Is there a self when the illusion is present?
..and if there was never a self and now it is seen, what is different?

This is a tough one to parse...
The delusion of a self is no longer present, there is a belief of a natural way of being without a separate self. There hasn't been a clear view (knowing?) of a way without a separate self, only the smallest of hints.

Ah, so it would be good if we recognized when we use labels.
In fact, this brings us to something more fundamental. Opinions...
Opinions are judgements. Is it possible to program in an alarm that goes off every time we have an opinion about something?

This alarm is already "semi-active" as of lately, coming online more and more. So far it's only serving as a flag after the fact: "See what you just thought about that person, that's judgemental."

Maybe you are not an AHA kind of guy. The 'scientific' mind usually has logic on a pedestal.
The subtle changes that you have mentioned may be the way it will be all the way. But you will know when you have 'got it'.

This brings relief and hope, thank you. :)

What I did find was stories. Many stories that I identified with. Whole chapters about preferences and habits and foibles. i think that you have found this too?

I'm catching the stories more often now as they start to form. Identify them as "just thoughts" and they pretty much unravel then and there. Maybe preferences and habits, I haven't been looking at those labels specifically. There is much less (if any) behaviours now that promote any kind of look, style or image. Adaptation into some way that will make someone else perceive me in a specific way - No thank you.
Strong pull towards kindness, compassion, understanding and love. Disinterest in news, strife, sensation and image/look/fashion.
Humbleness and calm comes naturally.
There's still irritation, worry, anger, sadness in daily life of course. I'm just observing some slight changes in patterns.

With love,

T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Find something you are absolutely convinced of and see if you can identify sensations linked to it as you think about it.

I get agreement or disagreement, a feeling of right or wrong.

What identifies them as right or wrong feelings?

My mind thrives gorging on its thoughts.

Ok, this is a big one...
Gorging isn't the problem. It's the calories that are. In this case, the calories are the attitude towards those thoughts.
If we have a really good friend, then they can tell us when our breath stinks and we don't take offence. Well, I have this relationship with my thoughts. They don't take offence when I tell them that they are crap. i have come to realize that 98% of thoughts that arise are rubbish. 2% might be useful. With this in mind, the baseline is that no thoughts has inherent credibility. The useful ones come with a flag so I don't have to worry which are worth consideration.
There's one more (almost irrelevant) thing about thoughts and that is that any of them might be entertaining.
It's that baseline that you need to adopt. Not because I tell you to, but a discovery needs to happen. How can we do this?
Ok, do this. Start a timer or stopwatch set at 100 seconds. Now every time a thought arises put a |
Now as you watch them and put a mark for each one, notice if it is a useful one. If it is put a --
When the timer finishes count how many happened and how many of them were useful.

often fear of loss: "What if I loose my relationship with my daughter", "What if I let down my beloved wife".
These of course reinforce the identification, deepening that groove.

Yes, thoughts are very good at keeping you engaged. Thoughts will provide answers which always leads to more thoughts. ..and that fear sensation causes a defensive reaction. A contraction.

So far it's only serving as a flag after the fact:

This is ok. Remember we are changing the dominant pathways in the brain. Even if it is days later that you catch it - that is good. You will get better and better at it and eventually you will catch it before it actually happens.

There hasn't been a clear view (knowing?) of a way without a separate self, only the smallest of hints.

Hahaha. You can't lose a separate self if it was never there. If before it seemed to be there, and now it doesn't, the only difference is in the seeming. We are not killing something. We are just recognizing that it was never there.
If you see a shimmer on the road ahead that looks like water and when you get there you recognize that it was an illusion. Was the road wet when the shimmer was first seen?

There's still irritation, worry, anger, sadness in daily life of course.

yes, for me too. i would say occasional these days as compared to frequently before awakening.

with love

vince

[BeingAware]

Good evening Vince,

Ok, do this. Start a timer or stopwatch set at 100 seconds. Now every time a thought arises put a |
Now as you watch them and put a mark for each one, notice if it is a useful one. If it is put a --
When the timer finishes count how many happened and how many of them were useful.

Yea, 98% rubbish is about what I got :)
It is still a strong habit. But I guess practice makes perfect. Just keep ignoring most thoughts.

Yes, thoughts are very good at keeping you engaged. Thoughts will provide answers which always leads to more thoughts. ..and that fear sensation causes a defensive reaction. A contraction.

The talk this weekend helped me more than anything to let go of that fear! I was so relieved! So many things that cleared up for me! I understand now that I can let go and that it will be alright.
However I'm not at that point yet, I'm letting stuff happen, letting go of as much as I am able to at this point.

There's still irritation, worry, anger, sadness in daily life of course.

yes, for me too. i would say occasional these days as compared to frequently before awakening.

This I can agree to as well. Less now than before.

Right now there's more work than I'm used to, more work than I've done in maybe three years or so. I find the work itself fun and engaging, much more so than the passive work I've been doing before, but the amount of work right now might be slightly over the top. We are aware of this, and also that it is a temporary "hump". So for now I'll keep an eye on that pile not growing any more and set a time limit for when the hump shall have to be cut if it hasn't diminished by natural causes.

I'm telling you this more to set the stage for where I am at in relation to energy and focus.
One could ask if I'm really focused and motivated to root out the separate self, and I'd say more than ever!
This job situation brings opportunities now to identify attachment to praise, attachment to "being seen as valuable", attachments to having to contribute to conversations and much more. These are just some of the latest days observations. And I'm questioning them now as soon as they appear.
"Who or what wants this praise? Is there a 'praisee' here? Where?"
Then look, let go and open up.

The zoom-meeting this weekend brought a lot of hope, but also some frustration, thoughts of course "Am I getting anywhere? What am I doing wrong? Am I not practicing enough? Practicing the right way?"

And just now the thought came: "Maybe you should just get back to what you did before, "unlabel" things, ignore thoughts, go towards the non-conceptual. Relax there."...

With love,

T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Yea, 98% rubbish is about what I got :)
It is still a strong habit. But I guess practice makes perfect. Just keep ignoring most thoughts.

Ok, it's important to not see our thoughts as enemies. Their intention (usually misguided) is to benefit us.
We need a pact with our thoughts. An agreement where we can allow thoughts to happen, but we will not engage. (unless they carry the "useful" flag.)

I understand now that I can let go and that it will be alright.

Great! This is a big one. That letting go is often described as falling. Falling with no bottom to stop it.
That letting go is the beginning of 'liberation'.
As long as you don't fall into the trap of trying to convert those around you, you will be more present for family (even if they don't see it)

the amount of work right now might be slightly over the top.

If this is linked to the unpleasant sensation, then it is because you are focussed on end results (maybe) If you accept that you can and will do what you can, and beyond that lies burnout, then you will be more present with your work too.

o for now I'll keep an eye on that pile not growing any more and set a time limit for when the hump shall have to be cut if it hasn't diminished by natural causes.

Hopfully you are doing this in a relaxed manner...

One could ask if I'm really focused and motivated to root out the separate self, and I'd say more than ever!

(it might only be words, but...) how can you root out what isn't there?
If you mean getting rid of the SENSE of a self, well, that will diminish over time, but when it does happen and it generates unpleasant sensations, that is a gift, an oportunity for recognition to happen.

This job situation brings opportunities now to identify attachment to praise, attachment to "being seen as valuable", attachments to having to contribute to conversations and much more. These are just some of the latest days observations. And I'm questioning them now as soon as they appear.
"Who or what wants this praise? Is there a 'praisee' here? Where?"
Then look, let go and open up.

Hmm, good intentions but a more skillful way is to put the emphasis on the recognition any 'head swell' that occurs. Then nothing more. The recognition that identification happened is sufficient to change it. To develop new neuronal pathways to respond to the praise.

thoughts of course "Am I getting anywhere? What am I doing wrong? Am I not practicing enough? Practicing the right way?"

Can you see that all of these thoughts are future oriented?
What you want to happen will not happen in the future. It can only happen NOW.

And just now the thought came: "Maybe you should just get back to what you did before, "unlabel" things, ignore thoughts, go towards the non-conceptual. Relax there."...

Nothing you can DO will get you there. It will happen when it does.

with love

vince

[BeingAware]

Hello Vince,

Nothing you can DO will get you there. It will happen when it does.

"I" can't make it happen, can't make anything happen, everything just happens/is.
Maybe just surrender to this some more then, let go of the idea of DOING more to "make stuff happen"...
Relaxing then.. Meditating for the relaxation, not for a purpose. No more practices for now. Just surrendering and watching for a bit.

With love,

T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Maybe just surrender to this some more then, let go of the idea of DOING more to "make stuff happen"...

Hahaha! Yes, surrendering is what happened here. ..but when you say "surrender some more" and "Let go of.." you are talking of DOing. This amounts to a legitimate question; "how do you do the doing of not doing without doing?"

Listen T, I searched for over 40 years. Read incessantly, listened to talks, attended meditation retreats, you name it and I gave it a go, and in the end it took one sentence, just one sentence to cause a shift.
Now knowing that this will not happen in the future, that it will happen NOW, knowing this you have to be really vigilant to recognize your sentence when it visits you.
It maybe something that some innocent says that you overhear. It maybe your child or wife. It could come from anywhere, but rest assured it will happen in the NOW.
Are you ready? Oh, and that vigilance I mentioned, that's not a narrow, sharp focus. It's a soft wide angle view of what life presents.

Keep talking...

with love

vince

[BeingAware]

Good evening Vince,

ok, maybe it's nothing, maybe it's something.
Today as I sat listening to a lecture and felt drowsy suddenly a memory hit me. A very clear memory with smells, clear visuals and sound for just a flash. Something from my very early childhood that I'd completely forgotten and honestly not remembered since.

Later we were gathering in groups to do a little group work and I noticed everything just was a bit less and a little bit lighter.
Less reaction, my usual "shyness" was almost completely gone, I looked people in the eye and didn't "shy away" internally like I sometimes do, . A lot less self-reflection/selfing thoughts.
On the way home I noticed I was watching people on the subway and not shying away then either and also that people were just people. Not as I usually view them, judging or judging me or otherwise projecting feelings and thoughts onto them.

Not sure "where I am at" right now, still very tired after a long day.
Maybe this was nothing. Or maybe this was a sign of things slowly shifting.
I'll just let this be whatever it is and continue "a soft wide angle view of what life presents" :)

With love

T

[vinceschubert]

Beautiful T, that was definitely something.
For me, the joyful tone says it all. ..and the fact that you had the perspective to view it all happening.
i love it.

v

[BeingAware]

Beautiful T, that was definitely something.
For me, the joyful tone says it all. ..and the fact that you had the perspective to view it all happening.
i love it.

v

HI Vince! :)
That light feeling wasn't back yesterday, or today. I was pretty much as usual "operating from the small self".
But I keep observing with a relaxed wide angle lens and sort of "letting go of thoughts and conceptions" as much as possible and as often as possible.
On my subway ride home yesterday I had another taste of observing people just as people for a short while, and a touch of general compassion for these lifeforms appeared shortly

Also an insight ocurred: when thinking stops and only seeing, hearing, feeling happens without concept - There's no me.

With Love
T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

I was pretty much as usual "operating from the small self".

Ah, but now you are acutely aware that this is happening. True?

But I keep observing with a relaxed wide-angle lens and sort of "letting go of thoughts and conceptions" as much as possible and as often as possible.

Excellent. Doing this in a really laid-back, chill manner will bring excellent results.

On my subway ride home yesterday I had another taste of observing people just as people for a short while, and a touch of general compassion for these lifeforms appeared shortly

It's really great to have these experiences visit. They are a reminder of a different perspective.
It's really important that you don't get sucked in to expecting them to be always present.

Also an insight ocurred: when thinking stops and only seeing, hearing, feeling happens without concept - There's no me.

Excellent. ..and so it is obvious that "me" was always a mental construct and can only exist when thoughts are present.

with love & excitement.

vince

[BeingAware]

Good evening Vince

I was pretty much as usual "operating from the small self".

Ah, but now you are acutely aware that this is happening. True?

I am. Although it feels like a choice..?
Like this weekend for axample. I've been indulging in some computer gaming, and this is something my mind tells me I have chosen to do even though it is unskillful.
But even as I'm writing this it's just nonsense because I don't believe in "I choose". I definitely don't think. Thoughts just pop up out of nowhere, and also are never true and very rarely useful. Like my in-laws 😄

Ok so here's an interesting thought-stream that popped up relating to all of this.
When I relax, really relax and spread my gaze wide taking in everything at once, relaxing hearing, letting hearing happen and so on. This is a very peaceful place, thoughts quiet down quite a bit, sometimes almost completely or at least are easily dismissed/ignored. Here life is seen as just happening all by itself constantly. And the more thoughts are quiet, the less there is a "me" anywhere.
These moments happen when there already is some space where nothing or no one is demanding anything from T. Like commuting on the subway, sitting on a meeting where I am not expected to "perform", sitting in the couch at home after dinner and the rest are watching TV.

As soon as there is dialogue where I am supposed to interact, or in any way am expected to do stuff, "I" am very much doing and choosing and thinking and planning.

Should I try and insert this "relaxing" into all these situations where I'm expected to act as well?
Sounds tricky since it's typically the things that throw me out of this relaxation.

Excellent. ..and so it is obvious that "me" was always a mental construct and can only exist when thoughts are present.

Very much so. Thoughts and stories and beliefs are what's keeping this "self" going and the suffering that comes with it.

I was walking around and grocery shopping with a headache yesterday and while slowing down my walk relaxed into this state of "less thought". The pain was still there, but lessened somewhat, and since there were less of a "self" in that state there was no one suffering and the thoughts and beliefs that perpetuate the suffering thoughts and beliefs quieted down. So for just a short while there was just a sensation which had a momentarily weaker label of "pain" and thus lesser suffering accompanying it.

With love
T