Liberation from self

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

No, awareness doesn't need to find a self. Awareness only needs awareness.

Awareness = being aware (as a verb). It is neutral, universal. It is shining by itself. It cannot be known by senses. It is known by itself, it is ordinary.

Nor does a body need to find a self. The body does what it does perfectly well without a self. No, there is no self to be found anywhere.

Yes, great.

Today there were a lot of depressing thoughts and feelings and suffering as a result.

As a result of what ? Be clearer.

After reading and responding to the above questions, it seems that what causes suffering is not wanting to experience these thoughts and feelings.
But if there is no self to feel them and they are just being experienced, why is there suffering? How can they be experienced without suffering?

Is there still a doubt about the illusion of a self?
How suffering is expressed in the body ?

There is still thinking that these thoughts are connected to a self even though it is so clear that there isn't a self.

You begin with this “there is still thinking…” : just recognize that all what is said above, is a thought story.

How can the thoughts that believe in a self that doesn't want to experience this be seen through?

What you said here is a thought story. Let’s do an analysis exercise :

“How can the thoughts that believe in a self” : it is a train of thoughts with no ground. How can a thought believe in
something?

“in a self that doesn't want to experience this “ : another train of thoughts. How can a self, a concept, experience
something?

Thank you for your help on this,

You are welcome

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

As a result of what ? Be clearer.

The suffering appeared to be the result of resisting the content of the thoughts, which were about the self. But they had to be being believed by other thoughts, and how can other thoughts believe something? This is related to the analysis exercise further down in your post.

Is there still a doubt about the illusion of a self?
How suffering is expressed in the body ?

No, there isn't a doubt intellectually but the thought structures are still in place and are not being seen as such. They are still operating in full force. This should be seen through, but it isn't when there is the experience of suffering. Suffering is expressed in the body as particular sensations that are generated in response to negative self thoughts.

You begin with this “there is still thinking…” : just recognize that all what is said above, is a thought story.

Yes, I'm seeing that, or that is being seen. When the mind is reading your posts and working on the responses, it is seen that these are all thought stories.

“How can the thoughts that believe in a self” : it is a train of thoughts with no ground. How can a thought believe in
something?

When you put it like this it is clear that a thought can't believe in something. It is necessary to analyze the thoughts that are referring to a self very closely to try to break the delusion. For some reason, habit most likely, sometimes it is not happening.

“in a self that doesn't want to experience this “ : another train of thoughts. How can a self, a concept, experience
something?

Again, analyzing this makes it clear that these are just thoughts that can't experience something. I keep thinking - "This is so hard", but that's just another thought to keep everything in place. Thank you for continuing to point out the fallacies and unexamined thoughts and pointing to where I need to keep clarifying.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

The suffering appeared to be the result of resisting the content of the thoughts, which were about the self. But they had to be being believed by other thoughts, and how can other thoughts believe something? This is related to the analysis exercise further down in your post.

All this is a thought story, come back to direct experience.

No, there isn't a doubt intellectually but the thought structures are still in place and are not being seen as such.

Now, if there is a doubt experientially, just describe this separate self for me.
Yes thoughts about the self are still here like the thoughts about a unicorn :have you ever seen a unicorn?

They are still operating in full force.

Can you give examples of how thoughts operate in the daylight?

This should be seen through, but it isn't when there is the experience of suffering. Suffering is expressed in the body as particular sensations that are generated in response to negative self thoughts.

Just put off the label “suffering” on sensations, see them just as sensations. What are labeled “suffering” sensations are the same sensations labeled as fear, as pleasure, …

Yes, I'm seeing that, or that is being seen. When the mind is reading your posts and working on the responses, it is seen that these are all thought stories.

Is really the mind reading ?

When you put it like this it is clear that a thought can't believe in something. It is necessary to analyze the thoughts that are referring to a self very closely to try to break the delusion. For some reason, habit most likely, sometimes it is not happening.

Yes, there is a need for vigilance, you are walking on a razor edge.

Again, analyzing this makes it clear that these are just thoughts that can't experience something. I keep thinking - "This is so hard", but that's just another thought to keep everything in place. Thank you for continuing to point out the fallacies and unexamined thoughts and pointing to where I need to keep clarifying.

You can do it for yourself : the clue is to compare the thoughts, what you write, to direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations) before you send your post.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Based on what was observed today by noticing all the self referential thoughts, the separate self is purely a function of thought. This was seen more clearly today. No, I have never seen a real, live unicorn.

Now, if there is a doubt experientially, just describe this separate self for me.
Yes thoughts about the self are still here like the thoughts about a unicorn :have you ever seen a unicorn?

I was observing thoughts many times today and noticing so many that referred to "I" or "me". It was rather shocking to see how many there were. But maybe this is a good thing to be seeing this, because before noticing there were probably just as many that weren't being seen and were just being believed as the story of "me".
Can you give examples of how thoughts operate in the daylight?

Well, they just appear, endlessly and most of them are about the self, or predictions about the future of the self or what the self should or shouldn't be doing. I'm not sure what you mean by your question, but this is what was occurring during the day.

Just put off the label “suffering” on sensations, see them just as sensations. What are labeled “suffering” sensations are the same sensations labeled as fear, as pleasure, …

I was feeling "unpleasant" sensations as they arose today and separating the thoughts from the sensations and saying "This is just a sensation".It did help when it was possible to focus very closely on the actual feeling of the sensation and see how without the thought about what the sensation meant that they were experienced as more neutral. And noticing that the thoughts that said "I don't want to feel these sensations" were just thoughts, again, always referring to a self. It seems this is an exercise in not putting any value on or belief in any self-referential thoughts because they the self is a fiction.

Is really the mind reading ?

There is seeing of your post, there is interpretation of the words and there are responses written down. That seems to be what is happening in direct experience.

Yes, there is a need for vigilance, you are walking on a razor edge.

I don't know what you mean by walking on a razor edge? Can you clarify please?

[warissem]

Good morning

You have done a good job here.
"Walking on a razor edge" means that you can fall easily, and believe in thoughts again. Thoughts are not qualified to describe "what is" for most of the circumstances.

There is an exercise for you :

For this exercise you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, then find a clock on Youtube.

Allow your eyes to close gently.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sound.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labelled as sound?

For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ (experience) of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (experience) of the sound and the sound (known) itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?

No, there is only the sound.

2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?

Again, no, there is no direct or actual experience of a clock in the sound.

3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?

No, it does not. It was interesting listening to the noise and experiencing exactly what it sounded like, completely divorced from the clock.

4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?

No, only sound.

5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?

No, no clock.

6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

No, there was no evidence that the sound was created by a clock.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Again, no clock connected to the actual sound.

Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?

Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labelled as sound?

I am not sure about this question, but when I close my eyes there is only the sound. There isn't sound, then hearing, they seem to be one and the same in direct experience.

So, Warissem, I wanted to let you know that I have been experiencing a great deal of anxiety this week. It seems like I have slipped on the razor's edge of thoughts and they have been very intense and scary. Would it be possible to slow this process down in some way so that it is more manageable and less overwhelming? I was looking on the Liberation Unleashed website and saw that there were some options for working with a therapist and I think it might be something that I could use. Do you have any suggestions in this regard.
Thank you for your help,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

So, Warissem, I wanted to let you know that I have been experiencing a great deal of anxiety this week.

Take it easy and relax.

It seems like I have slipped on the razor's edge of thoughts and they have been very intense and scary. Would it be possible to slow this process down in some way so that it is more manageable and less overwhelming?

It is up to you. It is about letting go and relaxing. Being-knowing is without effort.

I was looking on the Liberation Unleashed website and saw that there were some options for working with a therapist and I think it might be something that I could use. Do you have any suggestions in this regard.

You can see a therapist if there is a need for that. Have you read the disclaimer text? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2109

Take a break of a week from what is going on here, enjoy life then come back with your comments.

Take care and best wishes

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you for your understanding. I will take a break for a week and take it easy. I did read the disclaimer. Thank you for your help.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

I wish you good and happy moments.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Thank you so much, Warissem. I’m going away this weekend for my friend’s birthday so it should be very relaxing.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Have a good time with your friends

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
I had a very nice time getting away. I was right by the ocean and spent a lot of time just watching the waves which were very powerful and dramatic. I am doing a four day brain neuromodulation program that will be finished on Thursday afternoon. Would you be willing to start working with me again on Friday? Thanks again for your encouragement.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

You are much welcome

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you for allowing me to take some time off. What I noticed was that the "I" thoughts are still very prevalent and most thoughts are oriented to the framework of the self and how it is operating but that there is more awareness of I thoughts and more questioning "is there an I". It was also interesting to be around a group of people for several days and see that almost everyone was operating that way as well, and how it caused everyone to be fearful in some way. It was just useful to see how much fear and separation the belief in the self can cause. I am encouraged to keep doing this work if you will help.
I hope you had a nice week.
Thanks again,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, "I" thoughts and thoughts about the self will continue to arise and appearances of the world and others continue to arise. The goal of our dialog is to see that there is no separate self, no Francesca outside of thoughts.
Take Santa Claus : when there is ignorance, as a child, there is a belief that Santa enters through the chimney, etc ... After seeing the truth, we know for sure that there is no Santa, he never was and he never will be. Santa is a thoughts story.When Santa comes at the end of the year, we know for sure that it is a game.
That is the same for the person, the separate self. When it is seen that there is no separate self, the belief on its existence drops but this seeing is a beginning of a journey. Why ? Because the conditionings and the old habits continue to operate.
To understand more about this, I recommend this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

Having said that, I invite you to answer to this question with a 100% honesty :

Do you still believe in a separate entity, in a you, Francesca, living a separate life ?

If it is "yes", describe this entity for me in terms of color, shape, sound, smell, taste, textures, sensations.

Look deeply at the question, at the being, at the aliveness, ... then SEE what is there.

Best wishes

Warissem