Behind Kaiser

[Kaiser]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this in 2 ways. The first is the part of us that knows, though we have no volitional control over, the birthplace of God and of us, what inhabits us.
The second way is not understandable. It was seen in a kensho experience that lasted several hours about a decade ago. I was not there in a sense but reflection captured in my memory.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance regarding asking questions to look and discover, experience my absence. I have never reasoned with inquiry. I haven’t been able to muster my own interest in this process. I know too much and my intellect quickly overrides legitimate, honest, innocent explorations. My pride stands guard, fear is not an issue as of yet.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
New startling questions that can cut through my pride, arrogance and intelligence. Hopefully I can find someone trustworthy and kind. I’m very soft hearted hiding behind a masculine facade. I see masters and accomplished teachers as peers and if they assert too strongly a will, I won’t be able to keep open to suggestions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
2 shamata vipassana 10 day sessions about 20 years ago, self hypnosis around age 11 or 13, zazen sitting constantly for about 10 years (I don’t formally sit today), strong 12 step spirituality for 34+ years (sober throughout), some meta practice, 2-way prayer, my own “don’t look away “ practice-focusing on sensations and emotions amidst strong emotions and overwhelm, various books and retreats and YouTube browsing/podcasts, helped run a non-duality 12 step exploration etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Kaiser]

I’m awaiting a guide. I’m hesitant to use the app or read the book because I don’t want to work in isolation. In isolated reading and practicing, I end up expanding my leading edge but not my trailing edge. Something feels different when another person takes the time to step into my experience with an honest question for me to consider. My question seem to somehow reinforce conditioning I’m not fully aware of. I don’t know what questions to ask myself to really explore this in a living way but I feel I understand intellectually. I really want to live and breathe questions and experience bemusement and wonder.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiser
(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

What time zone are in?

Hi Rali. I do prefer to be called Kaiser and I am currently in Pacific or Western time zone. I am comfortable with everything so far and I am excited to start.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiser

I am currently in Pacific or Western time zone.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we'll menage ;)

I am comfortable with everything so far and I am excited to start.

Awesome! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I won’t have anything to defend nor represent any longer.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect a greater clarity and deeper honesty to function, or an additional capacity to not know.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t want to have dulled emotions, dulled vitality, no distance from life.

4. What are you hoping for?

I’m hoping beyond all else to see the truth that burns inside unrealized, unexpressed and share that with all I see and do.

5. What is missing?

With all I’ve experienced and discerned so far, there’s still this hesitancy, reluctance and hope that obscures a further untarnished honesty. I can’t reach the release trigger of surrender, I only regroup. It’s the original sin, the unasked for dishonesty, the belief in self reliance and separation that is beyond “My” capacities and can only be moved by a grace.

[Kaiser]

I have an instinct that, using a metaphor, my road (usual way of viewing experience) seems to be deeply rutted away from stepping into direct experience and as a result of all my explanations, my leading edge far exceeds my trailing edge. For guidance I’ve kept the following adage close: Truth doesn’t need us to hold onto it. If it’s truth we hold, it will still be there when we let it go.
I’m willing to be uncomfortable. I’d like to see truth and look forward to receiving help in this endeavor.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiser
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t want to have dulled emotions, dulled vitality, no distance from life…

…With all I’ve experienced and discerned so far, there’s still this hesitancy, reluctance and hope that obscures a further untarnished honesty. I can’t reach the release trigger of surrender, I only regroup.

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (emotions). But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.
Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

I expect that I may temporarily pass through phases of psychotic like stages as an old perspective yields to a new one. Also there’s always a latent fear or doubt hidden in beliefs or hope. The unknown can be terrifying and companionship can make all the difference. Thank you for such companionship.

why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

It would not change anything. I have seen this in other areas of my life and this position encourages and emboldens me to explore on regardless of terror and doubt. “If it’s truth we hold, it will be there when we let go of it”
Nice words, sentiment, yet can my trailing edge catch up, do I experience this? It’s nice to know I have confidence in this process, it remains to be seen if this will aid me when I’m confronted with letting it all go for real.

When you realized that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

My memory is inaccurate and fuzzy, yet I see what you’re pointing at. I do recall believing in Santa and many other things that either turned out to be false or evolved into something entirely different. When these changes or truth unfolded, I could still discern and cherish my “younger” viewpoint whilst being honestly moved and appreciative for my newer, wiser perspective. I can only assume this life will continue to unfold in this pattern and I’m prepared to release hope, faith and belief in welcomed expectation of truth. That seems like a great and reasonable trade from where I stand, though nothing is guaranteed. Come what may.
To be further in my honesty, offering up a deeper instinct, my awareness around these issues and principles and my ability to articulate them may very well be being used to avoid having a direct look into this experience. To the best of my capacity, may I submit to your guidance and challenges.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiser

It would not change anything. I have seen this in other areas of my life and this position encourages and emboldens me to explore on regardless of terror and doubt. “If it’s truth we hold, it will be there when we let go of it”
Nice words, sentiment, yet can my trailing edge catch up, do I experience this? It’s nice to know I have confidence in this process, it remains to be seen if this will aid me when I’m confronted with letting it all go for real.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when all of these are threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is acknowledging it, thanking it for doing its job, allowing it to be there, not fighting it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

I expect that I may temporarily pass through phases of psychotic like stages as an old perspective yields to a new one.

The shift can be very subtle – no fireworks and explosions, I promise :)

To the best of my capacity, may I submit to your guidance and challenges.

OK, I trust that if fear comes again you’ll let me know and we’ll deal with it.
Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find

.
At first glance I couldn’t find any fear. A few days ago I sensed an insecurity or a felt sensation of “No, don’t!” a warning or micro-dread that dissolved or hid from my awareness. I sense it’s still there but can’t access it. It seems like my intellect has wrapped it up so securely. I don’t know for certain if my practice of “don’t look away” has accessed this hidden reluctance. May I find it and greet this timid humble fear. I’d like to make its acquaintance and learn what it whispers with experience. I’m not awakened and still have a self perspective but I can sure talk a mean game. What question might you have for this assuming fearless one who cannot access his fear? I’d like to trade this knowledge and pretense of the genuine article and be moved awake.

[poppyseed]

Hey Kaiser

I’m not awakened and still have a self perspective but I can sure talk a mean game. What question might you have for this assuming fearless one who cannot access his fear? I’d like to trade this knowledge and pretense of the genuine article and be moved awake.

If nothing appears now don't worry - we'll deal with it when it appears again if it does, and presents an opportunity for LOOKING.
Please check my previous reply. I don't know if you noticed my reply as I wrote it almost at the same time with your second reply. My questions are there :)
Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Oh my friend Rali, it’s very difficult as i so quickly function through my intuition and articulation to step beyond. But so softly there she was… a watering in these physical eyes. A soft sadness and now tears. I have unprocessed grief, dry aged and well seasoned. I’m so sad, with a sweet flavor of joy. There’s no strong fear, just a loving farewell. This self feeling has toiled so hard in earnestness and what honesty it could muster to provide protection, comfort and companionship. It’s like my little child that wants to be real and have a love to offer. I really love him dearly for all he’s suffered through (even if by mistake, even if unreal). I truly love this life AND these delusions. It’s where I meet those just like me and see our shared experience. Here’s a secret I’d like to share. Part of me knows there’s no self and another doesn’t. I promised I would never abandon that imaginary illusion and allow it to be. I’ve deeply befriended myself long ago when abandonment visited. I’m not special.
Stepping slightly to the side from emotionality and into direct experience, a calm sober clarity settles these emotions and stories die down, recessed into the audience. Nothing in particular comes up. No emotions, a confidence gently blows. I look into this, thus. It’s natural. I guess I’ve been engaged in this little remaining romance of “my” story and all its human delights.
From this spot:
Feelings, I feel hesitant to step further as if betraying my sweetheart self. And feel unemotional in a way. I love and resonate with the mystic and am unimpressed with the coldness of Zen.
Sensations, pressure in the throat, chest tickles, tension in the scalp, lips, face.
May I continue further with apologies to this illusionary self. I really feel compelled to offer a thank you or apology to what has toiled so much to bring me to this point. I really prize life and offer it up.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiser

I promised I would never abandon that imaginary illusion and allow it to be. I’ve deeply befriended myself long ago when abandonment visited. I’m not special.
…I guess I’ve been engaged in this little remaining romance of “my” story and all its human delights.
…Sensations, pressure in the throat, chest tickles, tension in the scalp, lips, face.

So based on your reply, I can see mostly identification with the body and thoughts. Am I correct?

I love and resonate with the mystic and am unimpressed with the coldness of Zen.

Well, that doesn’t really matter, as we agreed to leave all of these behind during the inquiry :). It boils down to what you SEE when you LOOK through your senses, the rest is thought content which we are not interested in, right? I point you LOOK and report.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Please answer all questions, especially the ones in blue!
Love
Rali

[Kaiser]

So based on your reply, I can see mostly identification with the body and thoughts. Am I correct?

Sure Rali, I see your point. That’s a fair assessment. I do strongly and inadvertently build a world from thought.

It boils down to what you SEE when you LOOK through your senses, the rest is thought content which we are not interested in, right?

Fair point.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Sure. Agreed.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

🤔
I get it. There’s more of apple happening rather than a physical apple. Reminds me of whatever was shown in Kensho long ago. As requested, I’ll give it more direct experience investigation and report back.