Looking to see deeper

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
I hope you had a wonderful time with your family! It's such a special time of the year!

I haven't made any very big life decisions recently (well, hopefully deciding to register on LU is a big one :)), but I'll use the decision to buy tires for my car today if that's big enough.
… There's no separate "me" that had any influence on any of these conditions. Sometimes there were thoughts about making decisions, like deciding to buy a car or deciding to drive places. But there was never actually a separate "me" that could make a decision.

Good! I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made - "During everyday life I feel like I'm in control of many decisions.". The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with actions based on previous conditioning (trial and error). The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Ultimately, as you said, when you check your DE, there is no “I”/entity that makes a decision and there are no causes and effects (just stories). There is just THIS.

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?
Love
R

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

I hope you had a wonderful time with your family! It's such a special time of the year!

Thank you, I did :)

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness.

I was able to do this today. It was the first day in ~2 weeks to have a temperature above freezing and it was very refreshing to spend time in nature.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, nothing is truly separate.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

Just a thought.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

"inside" and "outside" are conceptual. In DE there's just what's happening, which is not divided into inside/outside.

Is there an owner of being?

No

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

"others" and "I" in others are conceptual and not in actual experience.

Is there a “you”?

No

My answers might make it seem like I've dropped more than I have. When I answer the questions, I can't pinpoint any "me" or separation in experience. But when I'm not inquiring and just going about daily life, the default experience has believed thoughts of "me" and separation. If I take a moment and check, I won't find separation. But then I'll forget that almost immediately and the thoughts of me/separation will return and not be seen as illusory.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
I’m glad you enjoyed your walk. Nature has its own way of revealing what is true.

My answers might make it seem like I’ve dropped more than I have. When I answer the questions, I can’t pinpoint any “me” or separation in experience. But when I’m not inquiring and just going about daily life, the default experience has believed thoughts of “me” and separation. If I take a moment and check, I won’t find separation. But then I’ll forget that almost immediately and the thoughts of me/separation will return and not be seen as illusory.

Yes, it is only language in thought content that makes the experience appear separated, but once the empty nature of “I” is seen then it becomes less sticky. What does the word “I” point to? When something is seen as lie is it still believed? By whom? When you have two opposing views you have to keep checking their validity. Conformation bias saves time and energy with discarding new ideas that do not fit with the rest. DE, though, checks with the senses what truly is happening. It might seem that it involves effort but is there anybody that is exercising this effort or is it just happening on its own – effortless effort?
It seems though that there is an expectation that there will be no thoughts of ‘me’ after the inquiry. If you are not the thinker (and did not exist in the first place), then how can you stop them from appearing? Did you make them appear? How exactly do you “believe” the thoughts? Please describe the action of believing

If I take a moment and check, I won’t find separation. But then I’ll forget that almost immediately and the thoughts of me/separation will return and not be seen as illusory.

Are you awareness? Are you doing the noticing of thought? Can you control the noticing (e.g. with some kind of practice)?
Is it personal?
Is awareness prior to, or is it arising together with, the objects that it is being aware of (e.g. thoughts)?
Can the noticing be separated from the thought?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Please don’t answer automatically! Allow the questions to work their magic :)
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

What does the word “I” point to?

In my writing "I" points to Paul, for the purpose of communicating, while at the same recognizing that Paul is not a real entity existing separately from everything else.

When something is seen as lie is it still believed? By whom?

No. But currently the difference between belief in Santa Claus and belief in the "self" is that with the self there's still a remnant of doubt about it being a lie, like maybe I'm looking wrong.

is there anybody that is exercising this effort or is it just happening on its own – effortless effort?

No, there isn't actually anybody exercising effort.

It seems though that there is an expectation that there will be no thoughts of ‘me’ after the inquiry. If you are not the thinker (and did not exist in the first place), then how can you stop them from appearing?

I don't have an expectation that thoughts about 'me' will stop. Only that they be "seen through" as illusory. I can't stop thoughts from appearing.

Did you make them appear?

No

How exactly do you “believe” the thoughts?

This is an interesting question. It looks like "believing" / "not believing" is just another thought about a thought.

I'm going to bed now but I'll respond to the remaining questions tomorrow morning.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

This is an interesting question. It looks like "believing" / "not believing" is just another thought about a thought.
… there's still a remnant of doubt about it being a lie, like maybe I'm looking wrong.

What is doubt?
Looking forward to the rest of your answers!
Enjoy the new year's celebrations (if you are celebrating)!
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Are you awareness?

No, "I am awareness" makes it sound like awareness is some entity with characteristics that I am, which is not the case. I would rather just say "awareness is happening."

Are you doing the noticing of thought?

Noticing of thought is happening automatically, but I'm not doing it

Can you control the noticing (e.g. with some kind of practice)?

No, I can't control anything. A meditation practice may happen and less thoughts may arise during the meditation, but there's no me that can make that happen.

Is it personal?

In DE there is no evidence that there's anything other than the sensations/thoughts happening right now. On the other hand, it really seems like there are actually other people who have their own sensations/thoughts. But that involves thought content and is not seen from DE.

Is awareness prior to, or is it arising together with, the objects that it is being aware of (e.g. thoughts)?

Arising together with

Can the noticing be separated from the thought?

Yes, there's still noticing happening in between thoughts

Can you tell if there is a being or just being? Is life happening to a being or as being?

If I were to only trust DE and not postulate the existence of other people with their own sensations/thoughts, there would be absolutely no characteristics of "a being" to distinguish it from anything else, so I would say life is happening "as being."

If I do believe it's possible for sensations/thoughts to occur to others without me being aware of them, then there is still a characteristic of "a being" which is the particular sensation/thoughts that appear for "me."

Is it really a good idea to not believe in anything that's not in DE? To believe there's no other awareness happening anywhere besides what's happening here right now seems close to solipsism.

What is doubt?

Thought content that questions or rejects some idea.

Enjoy the new year's celebrations (if you are celebrating)!

Thanks, you too!

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
Happy New Year!

No, "I am awareness" makes it sound like awareness is some entity with characteristics that I am, which is not the case. I would rather just say "awareness is happening."

Is awareness prior to, or is it arising together with, the objects that it is being aware of (e.g. thoughts)?

Arising together with

Is it really a good idea to not believe in anything that's not in DE? To believe there's no other awareness happening anywhere besides what's happening here right now seems close to solipsism.

These statements contradict each other a bit…
Solipsism suggests an entity that experiences reality – awareness entity, mind, etc. Something to which reality is happening. Can you see anything like that? Is awareness a separate thing with parts – my awareness, yours, etc? Can you see a border where your awareness ends and somebody else’s start? Do you experience other people’s awareness somehow? I keep asking these questions and your answers say one thing but your doubts express another. How do you know that you have a personal awareness (or you just assume)? Wouldn’t that mean a reference point – a self, something that makes it “mine”? Also you say “time does not exists outside of thought” but then you assume that everything happens in a linear mode. You see this is why we agree to leave all philosophy, teachings, etc. for the duration of the inquiry. We’ve assumed so much our whole lives and we never questioned it. Here we do the opposite – we question everything that we’ve taken for granted. What your thoughts are saying is just another “it shouldn’t be like that, because I don’t like it”. If there is doubt, keep on checking until there is no doubt. But if thought content is preferred no matter what over what is really here (DE), then little can be done. I can keep pointing with little success.
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali
Happy New Year!

These statements contradict each other a bit…

Yes, I noticed the later statements in my last post contradicted the earlier statements. I think it's because thought content gets mixed in sometimes more than other times.

Solipsism suggests an entity that experiences reality – awareness entity, mind, etc. Something to which reality is happening. Can you see anything like that?

No

Is awareness a separate thing with parts – my awareness, yours, etc?

No

How do you know that you have a personal awareness (or you just assume)?

I certainly don't know that I have personal awareness. But I find it difficult to see it is not even a possibility. It's clear in DE there's no personal awareness, but the idea to dismiss everything not in DE is still fairly new to me. I don't think I ever would have thought to do that without guidance. It would probably be helpful to check DE more often during the day than I have been. Today I remembered to check DE more often than usual and kept noticing the automaticity of everything, which was helpful to see.

Wouldn’t that mean a reference point – a self, something that makes it “mine”?

Yes, I see that believing in a personal awareness also means believing in a self.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

I certainly don't know that I have personal awareness. But I find it difficult to see it is not even a possibility. It's clear in DE there's no personal awareness, but the idea to dismiss everything not in DE is still fairly new to me. I don't think I ever would have thought to do that without guidance. It would probably be helpful to check DE more often during the day than I have been. Today I remembered to check DE more often than usual and kept noticing the automaticity of everything, which was helpful to see.

Is there a center to which experiences are happening? Close your eyes and find that which is always present - a feeling of aliveness, being- ness, am-ness. Stay with the feeling. Is it personal? Or is it simply a sensation plus a label “me”?

Let’s do another exercise…
Bring up a thought about a "friend." Then bring up a thought about a "stranger." Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?
Now, bring up a thought about a "friend." After that, look at a thought about "me.”
Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is found.
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Is there a center to which experiences are happening?

It seems that way, but I think the "center" is imaginary. It's not found in direct experience. I think what's happening is I don't feel like I have control over experiences, so all experiences are thought of as "other" and then there's nothing left to be labeled as "me," but the "me" labeling still happens and it points to some abstract nothingness that doesn't really exist.

Close your eyes and find that which is always present - a feeling of aliveness, being- ness, am-ness. Stay with the feeling. Is it personal? Or is it simply a sensation plus a label “me”?

It doesn't feel like me. It feels like a mystery.

Bring up a thought about a "friend." Then bring up a thought about a "stranger." Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?

The thought about a friend is more vivid than a thought about a stranger.

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

The only difference is in content.

Now, bring up a thought about a "friend." After that, look at a thought about "me.”
Is there a difference?

Only in content of the thought.

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"

The thoughts for the "me-character" use first person pronouns and special verb conjugations. Other than the content there's no difference to the thoughts. In other words, they're both just thoughts.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

It seems that way, but I think the "center" is imaginary. It's not found in direct experience. I think what's happening is I don't feel like I have control over experiences, so all experiences are thought of as "other" and then there's nothing left to be labeled as "me," but the "me" labeling still happens and it points to some abstract nothingness that doesn't really exist.

That “seems" like a lot of thought content. Phrases like “seems like” and “feels like” always suggest thought content. Nothing in DE is “seems like” – it’s either there or not. The rest is thought content - pseudo DE, a magical story about a magical reality. So is there a center there? Center in relation to what? Is there a nothing-ness that is separate from everything-ness? Is there a difference between “here” and “there” in DE? And AGAIN, is DE a special mode of existance?

Just to make it clear:
Feels like/ seems like = thought content (not (DE)

It doesn't feel like me. It feels like a mystery.

“Feels like” :)? Is it personal? Or is it simply a sensation plus a label “me”?

The thought about a friend is more vivid than a thought about a stranger.

How is the thought more vivid? Does it shine in a different colour? How is this observed in DE? Is it possible, that there are simply more thoughts about a 'friend' (memories)?

The thoughts for the "me-character" use first person pronouns and special verb conjugations. Other than the content there's no difference to the thoughts. In other words, they're both just thoughts.

Do you know that there are languages that can skip the first pronoun and only the verb’s conjugation suggests the subject? I suppose some languages come closer to DE putting an emphasis on the verbs :). But yeah, ultimately, they are all thoughts/content and not the reality. Similar to the contrast between the actual eating of chocolate and the description of it, the content can’t come even closer to what really is happening. Most of the time it is even completely wrong :).

Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Thank you, I see now there was a lot of thought content in my last investigation.

So is there a center there? Center in relation to what?

No, there's no center.

Is there a nothing-ness that is separate from everything-ness?

No

Is there a difference between “here” and “there” in DE?

No

And AGAIN, is DE a special mode of existance?

No, it's just how experience is without looking into thought content.

“Feels like” :)? Is it personal? Or is it simply a sensation plus a label “me”?

What I meant is when I look into "a feeling of aliveness, being-ness, am-ness," I don't see a "me" label attached to it. If there's a label it is more like "???" or "mystery". But anyway, it's just a label for a sensation.

How is the thought more vivid? Does it shine in a different colour? How is this observed in DE? Is it possible, that there are simply more thoughts about a 'friend' (memories)?

It was a mental picture of a friend that looked more vivid than a mental picture of a stranger (the mental picture of a stranger was vague and not fixed). That's just a description of the informational content of the thought, not DE. And also after repeating the exercise for language-based thoughts, the content is different but otherwise no difference to the thoughts.

-

Maybe I should add, today when I was investigating whether there's a "center" to experience I spent a long time sitting mostly with my eyes closed. And this odd thing happened ~10 times where my body would suddenly jump and my eyes would open without warning. I don't know what's up with that, if anything, but it's never happened to me when meditating before.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

Very good!! Thank you so much for your determination and effort!
So, has anything changed in everyday experience? How is life these days?

What I meant is when I look into "a feeling of aliveness, being-ness, am-ness," I don't see a "me" label attached to it. If there's a label it is more like "???" or "mystery". But anyway, it's just a label for a sensation.

So basically, the right DE label should be ‘sensation’. The rest is poetry/richness of language :).There is an old saying in Zen: “In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.”

It was a mental picture of a friend that looked more vivid than a mental picture of a stranger (the mental picture of a stranger was vague and not fixed). That's just a description of the informational content of the thought, not DE. And also after repeating the exercise for language-based thoughts, the content is different but otherwise no difference to the thoughts.

What would be the difference if you see a ‘friend’ and a ‘foe’ right now? Is there a difference beyond the stories attached to the colours? What are memories? Are ‘memories’ from the past?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

P.S.

Maybe I should add, today when I was investigating whether there's a "center" to experience I spent a long time sitting mostly with my eyes closed. And this odd thing happened ~10 times where my body would suddenly jump and my eyes would open without warning. I don't know what's up with that, if anything, but it's never happened to me when meditating before.

Things happen...Sometimes, thought doesn't know how to describe them ;). Most of the time a replacement is mysticism instead of the simple "I don't know" and letting go of it.

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

So, has anything changed in everyday experience? How is life these days?

There hasn't been a big "shift" like the kind I remember reading accounts of in the LU book. The main difference I notice is more interest in DE and less interest in thoughts. If you'll allow me to refer to time, yesterday the thoughts about "me" still happened very frequently and were often not "seen through".

What would be the difference if you see a ‘friend’ and a ‘foe’ right now? Is there a difference beyond the stories attached to the colours?

The feeling sense after seeing a 'friend' would probably be different from the feeling sense after seeing a 'foe' (open vs. tight/constricted sensations)

What are memories?

Thoughts about 'the past'

Are ‘memories’ from the past?

No, 'the past' is a concept and the memory happens as a thought right now.