Need guidance

[Olof]

Are you attempting to look at the self through the self? Just accept it, let it be there. Dont judge, simply look at the activities of the mind, even the looking in and of itself.

"Okay, looking at the mind, the mind is looking at the mind, thoughts about looking at the mind is occuring" etc. ALL of it has to be dropped. Dont position yourself as the looker at the mind or something like that.

The thoughts.
The awareness.
The looking at the thoughts.
The feelings or subtle state ("vibe").

All of it occurs, theres not a you in any of it. When I say look at the mind, I dont mean look at the mind while you continue to hold a comfortable underlying belief that self is in the looker. That way, you preserve your sense of self.

Try to see all of it. Dig deep.

[santosh]

My present is really a contradiction. While intellectually I have understood a lot. But the 'real experience' is not moved one bit.
Identification with thoughts is too much. While 'looking' either I am absorbed in thoughts or its a feeling there is no thoughts- a blank mind. But as you said this 'blank mind' feeling is because I may be positioning myself as looker of the mind.

[Olof]

The blank mind arises as a contrast to the times when the thoughts are generated in your brain. The feeling of self is just a belief you have and continue to hold. Looking at the mind is just a way of destroying that belief by collecting contradicting evidence.

When chains of thought come up, DO you really create that? Or does the thoughts just rise up from nowhere? When you watch the mind, dont you notice how the thoughts just come whenever they "want" and talk about whatever they "want"?

What is identification with thoughts? Who is identified with them? Its your conscious attention, you seem to equal that with self. But really, conscious attention is just a way of focusing on a certain thing, like a stream of thoughts or a small object in front of you.

If you are conscious attention, whos generating the conscious attention?

Does it seem plausible that WHAT YOU ARE is just a way of focusing your mind on something? What about your internal organs, your muscles, your breathing etc. But really, the feeling most people have is that what they are is this ability to concentrate the mind, located between the ears and behind the eyes.

If this is you, what about whatever is generating this focus? It just works, its just there, created from nothing whenever its needed.

[santosh]

The blank mind arises as a contrast to the times when the thoughts are generated in your brain. The feeling of self is just a belief you have and continue to hold. Looking at the mind is just a way of destroying that belief by collecting contradicting evidence.

The blank may not be really blank. Some thoughts are there which confirms that there are no thought stories going on. Actually, its more of an absence of thought stories and my getting involved with them.

When chains of thought come up, DO you really create that? Or does the thoughts just rise up from nowhere? When you watch the mind, dont you notice how the thoughts just come whenever they "want" and talk about whatever they "want"?

Yes, thoughts do come up on their own accord and do whatever they intend to do, but all this I observe at present only as a recollection, since after getting absorbed in thoughts and then coming out only I realise again I got lost in thought stories or chain of thoughts and what it was talking about.

What is identification with thoughts? Who is identified with them? Its your conscious attention, you seem to equal that with self. But really, conscious attention is just a way of focusing on a certain thing, like a stream of thoughts or a small object in front of you.

I didn't understand the above sentence, what is the 'conscious attention' referring to. If conscious attention is a way of focusing, I am not intentionally doing it, instead I am getting absorbed in thoughts without even knowing it.

Does it seem plausible that WHAT YOU ARE is just a way of focusing your mind on something? What about your internal organs, your muscles, your breathing etc.

I did not understand this also.

If this is you, what about whatever is generating this focus? It just works, its just there, created from nothing whenever its needed.

Sorry, again I am not getting the point.

[santosh]

Hi. Olof. Why no response.

There are three ways for a starter like me to go ahead:
1. To look inside and search for "me". That I am finding it very difficult.
2. Second is to watch the mind time to time throughout the day and if any negative or troublesome thoughts arise, just say to myself " that it does not matter because there is no I, it is just a thought going on". But this telling myself is also a thought. So this also will not work. But is helpful in a small way because it helps in making this understanding into a habit which would good later.
3. Only alternate is to look inside and "watch the thoughts". Which though does not straightaway remove the illusion of 'me'. But helps in taking the first step, that is to observe the thoughts (simultaneously) while it is going on its thinking and see from the awareness state. This ability would show that you are not the thoughts and that you get a taste of awareness.
I think I may be correct in what I have said above.

But, this watching of thoughts is proving to be difficult.
Now, I have left this conscious attention or focusing.
Now I (this I thought) sit passively, just watching. But without its noticing, effortlessly this I-thought gets replaced by another thought. After some time I-thought comes back and says it got identified by thoughts again.
So getting into the state of awareness to "watch the thoughts simultaneously arising and receding" is not happening.

I hope you will reply. Some days break is good because it gives time to ponder over these things, but too many days gap creates a discontinuity in communication.

[Olof]

Hey man! Sorry for not answering for some time, had a lot going on in my life.

"But, this watching of thoughts is proving to be difficult.
Now, I have left this conscious attention or focusing.
Now I (this I thought) sit passively, just watching. But without its noticing, effortlessly this I-thought gets replaced by another thought. After some time I-thought comes back and says it got identified by thoughts again.
So getting into the state of awareness to "watch the thoughts simultaneously arising and receding" is not happening."

This is the thing, you have to take a step back and see all of this from a third perspective. When you do that, you will see how the egoic mind is a construct talking to itself, feeding itself, and it is possible to leave all that and see all these processes for what they are.

I kinda feel like I run out of things to say, so I think its better if we focus on your direct experiences from now on. Me describing how this feels or what should happen seems really ineffective.

I think you got some of the things you wrote a little bit wrong. Its not that you are not the thoughts. The you are not. You are nothing, and everything, because the world is one continous process of which you are a part.

So the thoughts are a part of reality, theres nothing unreal about them. But thoughts have an abstract meaning, this meaning is not part of reality, because it points to a fantasy of something.

If you have a thought of a car, the car that you are thinking about doesn't exist in reality, because its only a mental image. However, there might be an identical car outside your house, that car is real, but the car in your mind and the physical car are not the same right?

The you is a very large and complex fantasy created by many thoughts collectively.

The view other people have of you based on your actions and words in previous situations, filtered through their belief systems and experiences, creates an image of your personality. But you are not that personality, you are. This view is a simplification of you, it happends because people need to simplify reality into something they can understand and keep in their head like a map.

[santosh]

Hi. Olof
I can understand very well what you have told- that there is no 'I', only thoughts are going on.
But the problem is how to see it or experience it.