My journey into realization

[JonathanR]

It's been a really great pleasure to be chatting with you these last months Torgeir. Great to find ways to explore these things together. I've appreciated very much your approach of replying so reliably and quite quickly each time. This provides a helpful focus and momentum that comes from you. Is some ways you remind me of a determined bulldozer, pushing rubbish out of the way. But also very thorough!

Personally I do not have any more questions for you. At least not at this moment. If I ask other guides to take a look at our conversation they may want to ask questions. Because you tend to mention "100 percent certainty" and that you can't find it , that may lead to a few questions from them. I don't know.

As guides we don't tell people that they have succeeded in seeing no self because that is for you to find, not us. I may have jumped the gun in asking you the final questions too early and by now you've answered three times, each time indicating a degree of uncertainty or doubt.

(But we knowe what Terence used to say about Doubting Thomas )

I do like the fact that you keep reiterating the peacefulness of life and say this :
"There is nothing missing in life."

That's a powerful remark to make however uneventful the shift may appear to be for you.

Love
Jon

[KingGong]

Thank you very much, my friend. It has been a delight to chat with you and all the help from this conversation is beyond measure. The quick replies from here is a good sign for that.

That bulldozer analogy made me smile.

(Taurus and Aries is strong in this one as well, btw.)

All the stories I have been telling during this chat. That was without a self all along, no separate manager.
Who or what believes the beliefs? was my last inquiry that was asked the last couple of days. My answer is that thoughts believe themselves. In believing there is no believer.

If anything comes up, whatever that might be, please ask and I will do the same to you.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Well, after a little bit of reflection this came up...it's quoted from a meeting in the nineties with a non-dual teacher Robert Adams:

"Ponder this.
There is no special or real purpose for you being alive.
What are you here for anyway? What has man done for this earth?
What has mankind achieved even with all its saints and sages?
Civilizations have come and gone, and where are we now?
We think we are important. Who do we think we are?
We are born, we experience many things, we work,
make a lot of money perhaps, then we get old and die.
So what is the real purpose of all this?
There is none. We are nothing.
You have no reason to exist.
As a matter of fact, you do not exist. (Laughter)
You have never really existed. It is all a cosmic joke.
There is no reason for you to be alive and to be here.
This may sound like an insult--it is! (More laughter)
But it is the truth and the truth hurts.
You may think you are important, that you have come to earth
to accomplish great deeds, or to get enlightened. That is not true.
The enlightenment is already here and it doesn't need you.
You are not wanted by anything or by anybody. (Laughter)
You are a complete failure. (Loud laughter)
In truth you do not exist.
The illusion of your existence makes you think that you are important,
that you are somebody.
That is why we talk about being nobody so much; there is no body."
~Robert Adams


So, having read this, how does it fall? is there anything in it that confuses or which you would be unable to agree with?

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi!

So, having read this, how does it fall? is there anything in it that confuses or which you would be unable to agree with?

How you are able to get out a rabbit from a hat when I think there is nothing more to see?
Short story: The text resonated. Like there was more "ironing" to do.

Long story:
Reading this the first time was a bit like "so what?" or "ok". And it felt like it actually triggered something which wanted to argue back about the text, like, why is he not suggesting suicide as a solution to realize no self? If he really tries to help realize this illusion, wouldn't that be the quickest, most effective way to point to? And if there is no one, how could you be a complete failure if there there never was a you? I was thinking of looking at myself in the mirror, or remembering someone calling "my" name. Definitely feels like there is an "you" then, doesn't it? Then remembering the heart and seeing that the mind does what the mind does.

Then reading it couple of times it got funnier and the label "You" got more artificial and bizarre. Like a computer game where you see the nickname of each player being visible, which doesn't really affect the game. No one are those nicknames or labels. Maybe there is more to the text, I don't know, I could write several pages about this text. But I don't think there is any more to say that will bring anything reasonable to the table, if there ever was. Something here is starting to feel more into silence and trusting silence more than the usual words and descriptions that comes pouring out of my thinking.

In the end, I agree with the text and could erase all this and write back this to you: "Ha ha, what a great text!".


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Sorry for these delays in writing. You have been so good at answering regularly. Life here has been busy and I've found that the Gate forum has "stuck" a few times when I wanted to access it to reply to you.

Glad you found the Robert Adams text fun :-). It's amusing.

. Reading this the first time was a bit like "so what?" or "ok". And it felt like it actually triggered something which wanted to argue back about the text, like, why is he not suggesting suicide as a solution to realize no self? If he really tries to help realize this illusion, wouldn't that be the quickest, most effective way to point to? And if there is no one, how could you be a complete failure if there there never was a you? I was thinking of looking at myself in the mirror, or remembering someone calling "my" name. Definitely feels like there is an "you" then, doesn't it? Then remembering the heart and seeing that the mind does what the mind does.

Yes, I chose this because it is so blatant. "Enlightenment doesn't need you" Ha ha! What's that about? It makes a mockery of all those ideas about "becoming" something amazing/ different that isn't already happening..(.apparently in order to "solve the problem of me"?) Hee hee. It is funny.

Perhaps things are already perfect as they are? Even the appearance of a an apparently (though not actual) separate self ?

. Something here is starting to feel more into silence and trusting silence more than the usual words and descriptions that comes pouring out of my thinking.

Yes. Great. Ok.

Can you say with a big fat "yes" that the illusion is seen for what it is, and how it works?

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

I am the Perfect "student" ;-)

Yes, I chose this because it is so blatant. "Enlightenment doesn't need you" Ha ha! What's that about? It makes a mockery of all those ideas about "becoming" something amazing/ different that isn't already happening..(.apparently in order to "solve the problem of me"?) Hee hee. It is funny.

Ha ha, yes, its so refreshing when someone speaks from their "gut".

Code: Select all

Perhaps things are already perfect as they are? Even the appearance of a an apparently (though not actual) separate self ?

I like that you write an apparently separate self. Because that is what is seen here, an apparent self. Even though you could put "apparent" in front of everything I guess, except life. Life is. What could I do to make life more perfect or what would I change? I could always come up with different desires and wishes but that would not change life, only the experience. Whatever life is, life is beyond any judgment and weighing of the quality, including any judgment and weighing of the quality of life.

I asked openai (openai.com/blog/chatgpt/) a question about if I am a separate entity:
As a human being, you are a separate and distinct entity from other people and from the rest of the world. You have your own unique thoughts, feelings, and experiences, and you are capable of making your own decisions and taking your own actions. You are an individual with your own identity, and you are separate and distinct from other people and from the rest of the world.

It is important to recognize that while you are a separate and distinct entity, you are also interconnected with others and with the world around you. Your experiences and actions can have an impact on others and on the world, and the experiences and actions of others can also have an impact on you. The connections and relationships that you have with others can be a source of meaning and fulfillment in your life. Is there anything else you would like to know?

I can only agree to this. It makes sense. So what about the next next question then?

Can you say with a big fat "yes" that the illusion is seen for what it is, and how it works?

All I can say is that life is lived from a "human" perspective, which looks like ten fingers, two hands, two feet and body, including thoughts, feelings and sensations.
The illusion is that somewhere somebody manages their own part in life. Almost like a safe home, a cloud like separated universe, where only "me" exists. The illusion is that "Torgeir", "me" is that separated entity living there. This illusion is seen as a "construct" or "unconscious" belief based on thoughts and feelings. YES; with a big fat "yes", I see this illusion. It is just an illusion. "Torgeir" or "me" are labels which are pointing to life as this body. I am those labels, and the story of those labels. But more importantly, I am life without those labels and stories as well, and life is not mine.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Torgeir

I've slowed down. After asking you to post daily it's me who has been patchy. Sorry.

I'm really glad that you can say with such a definite YES that the illusion is seen! It's great.

. Torgeir" or "me" are labels which are pointing to life as this body. I am those labels, and the story of those labels. But more importantly, I am life without those labels and stories as well, and life is not mine.

I've only one thing to check with you here. When you say "life as this body", is that a last holding on place for the idea that there is something essentially separate and physically contained? Because if so we will need to investigate this further. You may not be saying this.

I mean is there belief in "life as this body"? Mentally, perhaps, if we ask AI to tell us the answer and tend to believe ideas about "being contained inside a body in space and time". Is there anything so constrained ?

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi Jon!

I trust life. How could I not after all this? In a way there is nothing to trust, which means you cannot do other than trust. Beyond trusting. Maybe a small break in between your answers have been to my advantage. I trust this process and you do of course not owe me one reply every day, even if that is what you encouraged me to do from the beginning.

There seem to be new angles to look from and things continue to clarify. All the fears I listed some weeks or months ago seem like distant memories now. Life is taking care of itself. I am sure your guiding have helped me along the way.

I've only one thing to check with you here. When you say "life as this body", is that a last holding on place for the idea that there is something essentially separate and physically contained? Because if so we will need to investigate this further. You may not be saying this.

I mean is there belief in "life as this body"? Mentally, perhaps, if we ask AI to tell us the answer and tend to believe ideas about "being contained inside a body in space and time". Is there anything so constrained ?

I believe "me", "I" and "Torgeir" points to an apparent separate body, a face and brain, just as a Ford Focus 2008 model with an unique registration number seem to be a separate car (It is not two cars). So, these labels, which are very useful pointers to the body writing this text, are those labels enough to make me believe in a separate self (a being contained inside a body in space and time), is that the illusion? Maybe, but I found that after your suggestion one time to look if there is a "self" right here now, that there is a deeper illusion to that pointer. Where can I look for a self? "Torgeir" is this body, but a self? Is there a self in the soul? Is there a soul? Who or what is the soul? The self? Haha. This is the illusion. There is no self to be found. It is a construct. This body has no self or separate manager which can be found. You cannot see something that is not here, so I cannot disprove a separate self (or a unicorn*), but that is not the point. It is beyond understanding.

(*Unicorn is maybe not the best example after remembering Terrence Mckenna talking about seeing a unicorn one time, and his "true hallucinations").

I have seen that the aliveness of a body is beyond the concepts of the body, like "me" or "Torgeir". A human being. Labels are not alive, however. They try to capture life with a snap shot of a body in time and space. And the mind seem to think (unconsciously) that the labels continue to live on in between every time the labels are used. They are superficial but point to something which is real. A "self" however, points to something which is imagined. My self and your self, what the heck is that? I get why people use self with a capital s "Self" now, which maybe could be a pointer to awareness or presence.


Love

Torgeir

[KingGong]

Just wanted to add an interesting experience today.

I was in the grocery store where I was walking past a lady who said "Torgeir" and something I cannot remember. I turned towards the lady and looked at her while she was walking towards some food. The whole event seemed quite weird because I could not recognize her voice, and when I looked at her I could not recognize her face. I then looked behind me and saw a man which was standing behind me. The gaze from this woman was almost directly towards me, but it was not "me" she was talking to. It was another "me".

There are occurrences like these, weird situations happening sometimes. Almost like life is playing with me.

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Merry Christmas!

. There seem to be new angles to look from and things continue to clarify. All the fears I listed some weeks or months ago seem like distant memories now. Life is taking care of itself. I am sure your guiding have helped me along the way

Wonderful.! This is how it also looks to me in speaking with you durng this time

. You cannot see something that is not here, so I cannot disprove a separate self (or a unicorn*), but that is not the point. It is beyond understanding.

Yes so true.Beyond understanding .

Everything you havex written is great Torgeir.

About your mysterious experience in the grocery store. Yes, curious synchronous experiences seem to happen. Sometimes amazing.Sometimes they don't, so much but then they do again. (Terence's "Elves" having a giggle, maybe ?:-)

I am going to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation and they may have some questions for you. Thus might take a few days , given thatv it is Christmas right now.

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Merry Christmas!

I was trying to find the video where he was talking about actually seeing an unicorn or something like that, if I remembered correctly, but could not find the talk.
Anyway, other people have talked about the «Elves» as well, which is really fascinating and mysterious.

I am going to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation and they may have some questions for you. Thus might take a few days , given thatv it is Christmas right now.

Thats great. It has been wonderful to talk to you.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Guides did take a look at our conversation and did not raise any more questions.

This means that our conversation here is at an end. But let's feel free to keep chatting if you feel you would like to do that? I will email you with a few details about one or two LU user groups you may wish to join. An LU admin will also be in touch.

This thread will be moved soon to the Archive section of LU . You will have noticed that your name has turned blue already.

Thanks for the pleasure of this journey together.

Much love.

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Thank you for the email, and I got a nice letter from a LU admin.

Again, thank you very much for the guiding, compassion and this journey together.

I will keep in touch.

Much love.

Torgeir