Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:00 am

When you say the body is always positioned opposite of what is being looked at, what makes some parts of the scene seem like a "body"? When you close your eyes, does the "body" go away? If not, what is there that still seems like a body?
There are parts of the scene that are always available to participate in certain qualities of experience, such as the sensations inside the skin of the body that cannot be felt in other bodies, that other parts of the scene have a distinctly limited availability of sensations. These tactile sensations that are always present whether or not there are any bodies in sight (like with eyes closed for example) so the assumption that they represent the body seems valid.
What makes it seem like this contraction is "behind the eyes"? You noticed earlier that you can't even see "eyes". What if "eyes" is just an empty thought? Where exactly is the contraction then?
The contraction rests in the area behind and within the tactile sense of visual sensitivity to light. When I perceive it directly it erupts into a pleasant tingling sensation.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:05 am

It's becoming clear in this awareness that the sensations don't match the shape of the visual image of the body very well

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:21 pm

There are parts of the scene that are always available to participate in certain qualities of experience, such as the sensations inside the skin of the body that cannot be felt in other bodies, that other parts of the scene have a distinctly limited availability of sensations.
In experience, are there bodies? Or is it only in thought that certain areas of color and shape are "bodies"? When a sensation is felt "in the body", is the sensation really localized in a body, or is there an imagined visual overlay of "body"?

Let's try this. Sit, recline, or lie down so that you can completely relax, while holding an object such as a mug in your hands. Close your eyes. Just be present for a minute or two. Now, without moving, turn your attention to the sensation of touch. Can you tell where your hands end and the object begins? Can you feel "hands touching an object" or is there just sensation? Is the sensation in a body, or is there just an imagined visual overlay? Without the overlay, where is the sensation?

Try this also: Any time you look at a scene, do you notice a rapid, subtle, repeated movement of mind (thought) alternating focus between "out there" and "behind the eyes"? It might seem as if you're "reaching out" to apprehend objects in the environment or to measure the distance between "you" and "the object". Just be aware of that as much as possible throughout the day. See if that movement of mind ceases for a moment. What's that like?
It's becoming clear in this awareness that the sensations don't match the shape of the visual image of the body very well
You're on the right track.

Have fun with this!
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:48 am

In experience, are there bodies? Or is it only in thought that certain areas of color and shape are "bodies"? When a sensation is felt "in the body", is the sensation really localized in a body, or is there an imagined visual overlay of "body"?
There are no bodies, only the shapes and colors. It's just an imagined visual overlay.
Let's try this. Sit, recline, or lie down so that you can completely relax, while holding an object such as a mug in your hands. Close your eyes. Just be present for a minute or two. Now, without moving, turn your attention to the sensation of touch. Can you tell where your hands end and the object begins? Can you feel "hands touching an object" or is there just sensation? Is the sensation in a body, or is there just an imagined visual overlay? Without the overlay, where is the sensation?
There's just sensation and an imagined visual overlay. Without the overlay the sensation is in the same place as with the overlay
Try this also: Any time you look at a scene, do you notice a rapid, subtle, repeated movement of mind (thought) alternating focus between "out there" and "behind the eyes"? It might seem as if you're "reaching out" to apprehend objects in the environment or to measure the distance between "you" and "the object". Just be aware of that as much as possible throughout the day. See if that movement of mind ceases for a moment. What's that like?
It feels like "in here" combines with "out there"

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:36 am

Great work, Tennyson! Are you closer experientially to seeing through some of the illusions that were not obviously illusions before--in other words, do the following illusions seem "real" or "true"?

That there is a perceiver?

An owner of a body?

One who is separate from experience?

One who relates to other people? For this illusion, I think this video might be helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwBPPfuo50
My suggestion is that you interact with others while remaining constantly aware that you have no head in experience. Let me know if any insight comes from that.

Warmly,
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:23 pm

That there is a perceiver?

An owner of a body?

One who is separate from experience?
These seem to be verifiable illusions that only didn't before because of a habitual way of thinking
One who relates to other people?
There isn't one, just a label to a sensation, about which a thought imagined there to be a verifiable person because that's what I was told. The contraction of "self" has almost always been in the parts of my body that I couldn't see, and so I took certain sensations (neck/head/spine) to be those images and loaded them up with unprovable validity as the source of the doer/perceiver/owner. I can't even directly verify that there is a neck/head/spine here at all.

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:45 pm

Hey Tennyson,
Everything you say sounds great. What about the illusion of the separate self is still unclear in experience?
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:08 pm

It seems all clear, and if anything comes up the framework to dismantle it seems to be understood

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:33 pm

Terrific! Unless there's anything else you'd like to look at, I'll give you "Final Questions". When your answers to these have been approved by 3 other guides, you are welcomed through the "Gateless Gate". Practically, that means you can join private Facebook pages, you can participate in private Zoom calls, and you can guide on LU if you like. Let me know if you're ready or if there's something else we need to look at first.
Best regards,
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:31 pm

I don't think there's anything else to be looked at, though I also feel to just sit with this for a while longer.

I'll take the final questions but am not sure when I'll submit them for review if that's alright.

It's been great going over this with you, thank you for your guidance.

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm

Hi Tennyson,
Here are the Final Questions. Take your time. I'm in no hurry to complete this inquiry, so if anything comes up, let's examine it.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.  
 3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience. 
6) Anything to add?

Best wishes,
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:08 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. Certainly not.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I do not know when it starts, besides from what others have told me, which is in the first few years of life. I see it to be constructed through interpersonal communication, which depends on the function of implication to work. This imagined implication fills "the gaps" between peoples distinct experiences and allows something of a simulated objective reality to be shared. In this "objective" mental pseudo-reality, there are symbols which represent events. One such category of symbols (names/pronouns) are applied to the events that are represented by the idea of "human bodies". These symbols, or labels, act as mental caches - around which the idea of a "self" entity and an "other" entity can accumulate. When the self is established, everything that is then recorded is done so with the additional inference of how it relates to the story of the self, deepening the sense of gravity that the implication "I" carries. Until it is properly investigated, the implied objective reality is not seen to be purely mentally generated fantasy, because of which the body will react to it as if it were detected in direct experience.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels nice to have a more clear ability to articulate it and more adeptly deconstruct residual mental blocks. There has been some alleviation of confusion about how thought interacts with the other aspects of experience.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I don't remember, it must have happened some time ago before this. What brought additional clarity was the video about the headless way and being guided through how thought projection works.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Storytelling tools, descriptions of appearances that are only relevant in the alleged theatrics of the appearances. In that story, decision is something that happens as directed by intention, when presented with options (choices), in resistance to, while also being an attempt at, control, as the expression of free will. Outside of the story, they are all meaningless labels, for which the required elements for their existence simply are not available to be built upon.
6) Anything to add?
All of this communication and meaning-making is like a game. Any sense of reality it has is derived from a continual collective agreement to participate in the act. This mental projection appears to fulfill a function as a tool of organizing an approach to life. Everything I seem to know is only knowledge within the game, derived from the game, about the game. It has utility in playing the game, but not in understanding anything beyond it.

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:45 pm

Looks good to me, Tennyson. I posted the link to this thread on LU Guide Central for additional questions or confirmation.
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.

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Soma
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby Soma » Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:36 am

Cheers, Jeff!

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AwayKen127
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Re: Looking to sort out what I've realized from what I've memorized

Postby AwayKen127 » Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:24 am

Hey Tennyson,
I have one guide confirming but the others are not weighing in. I'll give them a bit more time and then I'll badger them.
Best,
Jeff
SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought.


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