Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

Is there a seer of the cup? Or there is only the cup seen/known, only seeing happening, but without an entity seeing it?

There is only the seeing. In that certain moment when I do this exercise I can see that there is no one “looking” there is only the seeing. I can’t find any identity doing an action. Just it happening.

but is there a feeler of the table? Or there is just feeling happening, but no feeler?

Yes there is feeling but no feeler. I see that. I also noticed throughout this that my hand moved to feel it a bit more and “I” didn’t tell it to move, it just did.

The sound is present, but is there a hearer? Someone/something hearing it? Or there is only the sound heard, without an entity hearing it?

No, there is just the sound present. An experience but no identity that experiences it. Only “vroom” of the motorcycle.

I feel like I see what you’re pointing to, and while doing the exercises I can see it clearly for certain moments. It’s very clear. The thing is that throughout the day I am caught up in the thoughts and the stories and everyone’s lives built on the fact that I have an identity, and free choice, etc. and it’s sort of true. It’s becoming clearer that it’s not true when you really look at it, but it’s true in the story we live in. And you can’t take it away really because then how would we live? This I think is what’s kind of blocking me right now. This dilemma and getting caught up in the day-to-day.

Thank you,
Dana

[Vivien]

I feel like I see what you’re pointing to, and while doing the exercises I can see it clearly for certain moments. It’s very clear. The thing is that throughout the day I am caught up in the thoughts and the stories and everyone’s lives built on the fact that I have an identity, and free choice, etc. and it’s sort of true. It’s becoming clearer that it’s not true when you really look at it, but it’s true in the story we live in. And you can’t take it away really because then how would we live? This I think is what’s kind of blocking me right now. This dilemma and getting caught up in the day-to-day.

Well, we are not aiming to see this 24/7. Rather, we are looking and seeing at this to dismantle the belief in it, but it doesn't necessarily follows to see it all the time.

the appearances are allowed to say, or are they not?

Well, try to incorporate this looking into your everyday life. Not to see it all the time, but to see it often, with all sorts of things happening. So try to look as often as possible, even if just for 5-10 seconds. Just look and see, and then just continue with life. The five minutes later, pause for a moment and look again.

Let me know how it goes.

V

[Danadd]

Hi,
It was kind of hard to remember to do it throughout the day. But there were a few times when mainly it was noticing that my body is moving without me deciding to do it. It’s really cool to notice that. And there was another time I think when I said something and I noticed that it just came out without a decision really. That’s mainly the times I saw it. With thoughts I didn’t really notice that bc it takes more concentration I think. There were also times when I noticed one of the senses and I saw that.. idk how to explain. Not like I saw there wasn’t anyone there, but it’s just that all my attention was on the experience and not a thought. Just the experience of the senses.
Dana :)

[Danadd]

Sort of empty I guess.

[Vivien]

All right. I'd like to ask you to spend a few days with this. You can use reminders to make you look. Like post-it labels, or you whenever you look at your watch, remember to look, whenever you wash your hands, eat food, drink, have a shower, or do anything that doesn't require too much of your intellect. Just try to make it into a habit. Especially focus on thoughts. If it helps, you can add a 10-15 minutes of inquiry session when you do nothing else but sit and just what how thoughts happen and whether you make them happen or not.

Let me know how it goes, and enjoy :)

Vivien

[Danadd]

Sounds good:)

[Danadd]

So just for clarification, I am looking for control/ seeing the lack of it?

[Vivien]

yes, seeing that everything is happening on it's own.

[Danadd]

Hi Vivien,
So I tried to do this throughout the day and also take about ten minutes a day to only watch my thoughts.
What I noticed is that thoughts are very slippery.
I am having trouble getting in a state of focus and perspective to be able to see it. I have thoughts all the time, and only if I try really hard I’m able to focus on something else for a moment.
But I am able to see throughout the day how my body is moving without my command and I am able to pause my thinking throughout the day for a few moments.
Watching thinking is hard even more when it’s during the day than when sitting and doing nothing but that.
There were a few moments when I could see that i don’t control the thoughts. And I realized that because I have thoughts about thoughts, etc. it’s sort of a different perspective that I need to look at it from. A perspective where just like I watch what I hear, feel, smell, I also watch the thoughts. It is something I think I can get better at over time.
Thanks,
Dana

[Vivien]

Hello,

Here is a step-by-step description of how to observe and become aware of all thoughts. The first thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts, be they words, mental images or snippets of music etc, but don’t engage with any of them. If you find yourself engaging with thoughts, just gently bring your attention to observing each thought.

When I ask you to look for the gap, the purpose of that looking is to slow thoughts down, as thoughts can be like a machine gun and fire a multitude of thoughts, one after the other and be very noisy, subtle, chaotic or calm. The objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you are sitting with eyes closed and all that is seen is the ‘blackness behind the eyes”. A thought might arise “oh look, there is a red glow appearing in the darkness behind my eyes” or “it feels strange sitting here watching for thoughts” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” – whatever thought is appearing.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought arises.

This is how to observe your thoughts:
- Watch how each thought arises and subsides
- Watch and observe the gap (be it a short subtle gap or a long gap) between each thought
- Notice how the current thought is passing,
- And watch and wait for the next thought to arise/appear.

At the end, please write me how did you go observing each thought as it arose, and observing the gap between thoughts when sitting silently?

I would like you to also apply this observation of thought throughout your waking day. Try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. This helps you to see each thought as it appears. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. Let me know how you went with observing thoughts as they appeared and disappeared. What did you notice?

[Danadd]

Okay, thanks. I’ll try it.

[Danadd]

For clarification, when you day notice the space between the thoughts do you mean trying to not think (concentrating on the breath or something else)? Because the automatic is thinking without stopping, which means there’s no space between which is why it’s so hard to notice them.

[Vivien]

Well, it's not try to to do something, rather noticing what is already happening. Thoughts might come very quickly, but sometimes there are very small gaps between them, even if just for a second. So just notice that.

[Danadd]

So I did the exercise three times today and tried to watch my thoughts throughout the day. As I already said, it’s very hard not to interact with them and be the watcher rather than the thought itself. I guess as I’m writing this now is that that’s something I notice. When Im engaged in the thought I am the thought.
But there was a loop of thoughts where the thoughts were saying things like “now I’m not engaging with my thoughts” or thoughts about thoughts about thoughts etc. (it happens a lot). Where I noticed that even though I was very “engaged in the thought” I was still watching the thought. I am not the thought. It is arising and I’m watching it from a sort of distance. That is always there, but when Im engaged I just don’t notice this distance so much.
Dana

[Vivien]

Good, so try to watch this a bit more. This ability to watch thoughts is key. From that seeming 'distance' you can investigate and see what is real/true and what is not. Please try to do this as often as possible, even if just for a short period of time. Make this into a habit. Any time when you don't need to think about something, just do this. Let me know how it goes.