Requesting a guide.

[IainB]

Hi Vivian,

Is this fear thing still strong, and preventing looking the 'real stuff'.... like what is it that you are in control of?

Do you feel that you need to spend more time with fear, or are you ready to go back to the original questions?

It was good to pick up on control at the outset. To see that Ian is arbitrary, un-chosen and not open to control is a rich opportunity here.

There's no fear. However I welcome any that is out there to come up and be explored.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion.

If the self is just an added narrative, then can those patterns and memories arising also be seen as arbitrary parts of a story, not chosen, not 'real and defining' components that were believed to contribute and 'make up' a character?

Are they much more accessible because they are seen as thoughts arising about character who was previously taken as real and where that character is seen as no more than a thought, they are simply stories coming up about a story? Will work need to be undertaken to deal with them?

Love, Iain

[Vivien]

Further work will definitely be needed. Those patters won't go away by themselves, and whenever they are activated, the self will be believed again, temporarily. Lot's of things are under the radar, we are totally unconscious of them. So you cannot observer something that you are not seeing, since it's unconscious. You can see only the byproduct, the reaction, but not the cause. Working through this cannot be avoided, if one ones to embody and fully live the seeing.

But let's go back to the inquiry, shell we? :)

Look at everything that appears in your everyday life. Don't just contemplate them, but actually look in the very moment when things happen.

What are you in control of?

List everything that you perceive that you have control over in a 24 hour period.

Love,
Vivien

[IainB]

Further work will definitely be needed. Those patters won't go away by themselves, and whenever they are activated, the self will be believed again, temporarily.

This is actually very clear. How patterns/hurts/recurrent memories/core and more superficial beliefs substantiate and underly the seperate self.

These are like a rolling thought drama and it's not enough to just say these are all empty thoughts the content of which is untrue - tentacles of unconscious belief and needs go deep inside these.

These then may (must) be taken as ongoing work to be further seen through as they will activate or trigger the seperate self post gate just as they previously networked it together. I like this and I appreciate your insights shared.

List everything that you perceive that you have control over in a 24 hour period.

I have many days free of my usual routine and start the first 24 hours now.

Much love.

[IainB]

Hi Vivian,

actually look in the very moment when things happen.

What are you in control of?

List everything that you perceive that you have control over

In now, it's hard to find anything I have control over.

In thought stories of the past, there was a belief that I controlled and arranged many things. When looking closer however, it is seen that this is an assumption that arises because these are the events or features experienced in my life.

It is impossible to choose the content of a thought before it is known. Yet as that content is known it is felt deeply to be familiar. The same characters, places and issues re-occur in thought, and so I believe I 'own' these familiar thoughts somehow.

Dream experiences are different. I might be a completely alien character in an alien world in a dream, and wake up surprised. Or on ayahuasca a completely new image or concept or aspect of identity can be consciously known, inspiring awe or perhaps fear. Control does not feel to be present in these examples.

It is impossible to control feelings as they are known. In a similar way to thoughts when known they are clear, 'fully had', 'already here'. These can't be controlled.

A friend of mine uses the direction 'if you can choose your next thought then tell me what it's going to be?' Of course if I could control thoughts and feelings I would choose to only have pleasant ones.

I will continue to look.

[Vivien]

Let's look at thoughts very closely.

Investigate this:

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?

Please make sure that you don't go into intellectual reasoning of how and why, rather OBSERVE yourself thinking and describe from what you see.

V

[IainB]

make sure that you don't go into intellectual reasoning of how and why, rather OBSERVE

It would be a shame to miss out on getting completely up close and personal in the intimate laboratory of the here and now by slipping into the endless 'helpful' concept suggestions that thought may offer.

What do you do exactly in order to think?

Absolutely nothing. No action, preparation or organisation is done prior to yet another new or recurring symbolic image.

How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?

Thoughts appear in knowing. When the symbol passes, knowing remains. Thoughts are symbols known. Any additional explanation would be a leap into philosophical supposition and a move away from the simplicity of knowing.

Some thoughts are triggered by actual events, e.g. I see a barking dog and the thought of when I was bitten by a dog as a child appears.

For other thoughts (conflicts, sadness, loss, deficiency, unresolvedness) the thought is known and passes and I intently look for the apparatus that brought that thought about but I'm just left flailing not knowing where it came from.

A rich exploration.

With love.

[Vivien]

Great!

Now look for a thinker. A person, and entity, and I or me that is thinking / doing / producing thoughts. What do you find?

V

[IainB]

look for a thinker. A person, and entity, and I or me that is thinking / doing / producing thoughts. What do you find?

Thought announces 'these are my thoughts'...'they even sound like me'. So in response I look for that me. I know not to look within thought. So thought is set aside each time one arises.

I keep looking in each moment of now, treating each as an equally useful opportunity regardless of how life is unfolding.

Today this led to a long period of looking for thought arising, to catch the thinker in the act. Then followed being in thought, abruptly followed by knowing 'I didn't choose that thought', and a return to looking. There is looking, then there is knowing thought. I can't see a transition between the two.

There is an absence of causal connection between the aliveness I am (looking), and the next thought. This is a rich place to look as is reinterpreting what I am in the moment.

It's useful to keep the focus here otherwise there tends to be a sinking into thought, a wallowing, a pull into the story that moves from one thought to the next. Separate identity seems linked to the unexplored unquestioned sinking from one thought to the next.

It is not possible to find a thinker in this looking.

From no-thing, arbitrary thoughts are known. I am the blank screen in which thoughts (as well as everything) appears.

This knowing, that knows thought is unchosen, is clear as as an instinctive awareness. It's not an entity/person/me/I.

With thanks.

[Vivien]

I am the blank screen in which thoughts (as well as everything) appears.

We have to be careful with this.

Just notice, how is this 'blank screen' experienced? Hint, look for any mental images... or even just the colour of blackness.

And how do you know that this is what I am? What is saying that?

Does that knowing say that?

Is there anything in experience saying that "I am this or that" other than a thought?

V

[IainB]

Guiding plus Looking has real teeth. Thank you for getting me to look at this. I don't want to adopt new beliefs from thought.

Just notice, how is this 'blank screen' experienced?

This came about from the contrast between the curious aware looking (for what makes a thought? for who does thinking?) and being thought. The 'forgeting' looking as thought emmersion happens. This contrast of shifting experience ended up being expressed in thought as the concept of a 'screen', sometimes a 'screen' of looking and knowing, sometimes a 'screen' in which a thought story interlude is being shown and fully absorbed into.

Even looking, knowing, awareing are best guess words that try to convey the alive experience here.

Just notice, how is this 'blank screen' experienced?

It is an extrapolation, an inference, an analogy suggested by and appearing in thought.

And how do you know that this is what I am?

It can't be found when looked for.

What is saying that?

Nothing saying. It is a thought image that is commented on by further thoughts.

Does that knowing say that?

As a friend says 'knowing has no moving parts'. While thoughts are 'known', knowing cannot turn around and comment on itself.

Is there anything in experience saying that "I am this or that" other than a thought?

Unchosen and arbitrary are the words of the day here.

Can thought be taken as an analogy for what I am in the widest sense?

Just as thought can be fully known and yet is seen to be completely arbitrary and have no creator...

So knowing now is abritrary in its appearances (the 'content' of now, what seems to be happening) and has no origin or cause. It is all sealed up as a completeness here and now only. I am the knowing of it.

The barriers to seeing this would seem to be deeply held assumptions that 'there is more to this'...'there is a meaning here to this for me'.

Culture doesn't help either as it makes it taboo to knock through this wall.

There really is no one here choosing This.

I can see why Ilona calls this as returning home, as the belief in separation and choice was an artificial addition that was held onto but bears no relation to what I am. In being discarded, I remain.

If what is, is very clearly seen to be unchosen and arbitrary, then that which fights against what is has to fall away, as the components which sustain that fight, prop it up, are dismantled.

In this way thought is like a hidden easter egg. Once the easter egg is found the value of the analogy (arbitraryness and no creator) is known when applied to all that is known.

The level of maturity to really go for this is deep. You really have to leave all beliefs held up to now behind.

Nice. Much love.

[Vivien]

The level of maturity to really go for this is deep. You really have to leave all beliefs held up to now behind.

Yes, and even the intellectual reasoning you shared :)

Now, let's become practical and look at thoughts from a different angle.

Generally, there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:

1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to NOTHING in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content / ideas / concepts; just an interpretation, a story ABOUT what is going on.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.
#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how they do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.

While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?
Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

V

[IainB]

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more?

Only two ways. Thoughts labeling and commenting upon something in the here and now. Or thought narrative about characters, places and experiences not here and now (even if seemingly triggered by something in the actual and following on from this).

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

Indeed the first set points to something in direct experience whereas the other set is thoughts about thoughts.

Two things I noticed. The first was the similarity with seeing thought has no creator and is known as uncontrolled. Today thoughts about thoughts were known to have no correlation in actual experience following them coming up. Many times the thought 'not actual...not actual' followed immediately from this set of thoughts.

The second was how few thoughts I seem to have labeling the here and now usually. I did have a lot more today than usual, labeling colours, objects, people and so forth.

With love, Ian

[Vivien]

The second was how few thoughts I seem to have labeling the here and now usually.

Exactly. You did a nice investigation.

Here are two exercises for you along the same lines.

1. Take a piece of paper and divide it in two parts.
- In one part you mark each thought which content points to the intake of senses,
- on the other part you make a mark for all thoughts which don't point to anything in DE, like into the so called future/daydreams/plans or past/memory.
Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

2. Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.
Share what you find. This time please give a list of examples for both categories.

[IainB]

Please can I skip forward a day and report back in 24 hours.

With love.

[Vivien]

No problem, thank you for letting me know