Investigating

[Jackson137]

A space full of things. In the space you are, can you see thoughts?

Visual thoughts appear but they are easily discernable as not being "real" objects in the room. If I purposely imagine a lemon existing on my kitchen table, it "appears" in the same space as everything else I look at. In that sense the thought is "seen" as it is visual content.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but I feel that we are talking past one another here.

I was under the impression that "looking" or "seeing" in the LU context meant looking at direct experience which includes the 5 senses and thought but not their content. Earlier I meant "seeing" in the LU context wasn't necessarily a visual type of "looking" I just meant that all of the senses are involved in the "looking".

It does seem quite possible to mistake content of thought for something that is real beyond thought.

Can you give me some examples please? How does this happen?

Well the idea of an I, me or mine used to be a thought that I believed was real beyond thought.

Other examples would be times where you "hear" someone calling you and then go to check to only realize it was just a thought.

Songs can also be thought in the mind and are still "real"

People have all kinds of mentally created paranoia or hallucinations that are mistaken to be real.

It seems there are a lot of examples of people mistaking the content of thought for something "real"

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

I hope you didn't try to go to the meeting. I think the information I had was incorrect, at least I couldn't join the meeting.

Visual thoughts appear but they are easily discernable as not being "real" objects in the room. If I purposely imagine a lemon existing on my kitchen table, it "appears" in the same space as everything else I look at. In that sense the thought is "seen" as it is visual content.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but I feel that we are talking past one another here.

Yes, it seems we are having a communication glitch. That's okay, it happens.

I think you are saying that you can't see a thought, the same way you can see a object, but that if you use your imagination it seems you can create what you are thinking? Do you think imagination can create reality?

I was under the impression that "looking" or "seeing" in the LU context meant looking at direct experience which includes the 5 senses and thought but not their content. Earlier I meant "seeing" in the LU context wasn't necessarily a visual type of "looking" I just meant that all of the senses are involved in the "looking".

Yes, I understood that you were saying that seeing isn't only sight, that it can be done with the other senses. Sure, it can be done with all the senses, one at a time or all at once.

When you notice what can be perceived with the senses, do you find any evidences that a self is real?

Can a self be seen right now?

Can a self be heard right now?

Can a self be touched right now?

Can a self be smelled right now?

Can a self be tasted right now?

Well the idea of an I, me or mine used to be a thought that I believed was real beyond thought.

Other examples would be times where you "hear" someone calling you and then go to check to only realize it was just a thought.

Songs can also be thought in the mind and are still "real"

People have all kinds of mentally created paranoia or hallucinations that are mistaken to be real.

It seems there are a lot of examples of people mistaking the content of thought for something "real"

Yes, thank you for those examples.

So, Jackson, what is going on with you regarding the illusion that you are a separate self? Are you stuck in any belief? Do you have doubts? If I say "what you call self is real" would you believe me?

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

Hello Sandra,

Thank you for taking the time for all of your questions and reflections.

I think you are saying that you can't see a thought, the same way you can see a object, but that if you use your imagination it seems you can create what you are thinking? Do you think imagination can create reality?

It seems that thoughts can be noticed. Some are visual thoughts, and it seems for those kinds of thoughts the noticing is like seeing but we can tell the difference between seeing a real object or seeing a visual thought.

I don't believe that the imagination can create reality, but it does seem that people can get lost in thought.

Can a self be seen right now?

Can a self be heard right now?

Can a self be touched right now?

Can a self be smelled right now?

Can a self be tasted right now?

There is no self that can be seen in DE from any of these senses.

Are you stuck in any belief? Do you have doubts? If I say "what you call self is real" would you believe me?

I don't have any doubts about a self being real.

I think a lingering doubt was around the relationship to thought.

From previous awakening experiences, seeing no-self in DE became effortless but the relationship to thought was also drastically different than it usually is. I think there was some lingering expectation/desire for the relationship to thought to be transformed what these experiences were like.

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

Thank you for your answers and kind words! I appreciate your honesty and willingness to explore.

From previous awakening experiences, seeing no-self in DE became effortless but the relationship to thought was also drastically different than it usually is. I think there was some lingering expectation/desire for the relationship to thought to be transformed what these experiences were like.

What was different in your relationship to thought back then, when you saw that a self isn't real? What changed?

How would you like your relationship with thoughts to be?

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

What was different in your relationship to thought back then, when you saw that a self isn't real? What changed?

There was a dramatic reduction in thoughts spontaneously capturing attention. Thoughts generally were far less active than usual and everyday sensations were much more vivid.

How would you like your relationship with thoughts to be?

It feels pretty great when they calm down!

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

Yes, it feels great when thoughts calm down. There are practices that may help with that. Seeing that a separate self isn't real may have that effect or not and if it has things may change, like you have experienced.

So it seems you think that if you see/saw the illusion things could change and this expectation makes you doubt what you can see? What is making you doubt that a self is an illusion at the time being? Do you have more expectations keeping you stuck?

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

Hello Sandra,

Right now there are no doubts.

This dialogue has helped me sort out the expectations that we’re lingering around.

Thank you for your time with this dialogue. I’m happy to answer any other questions you may have.

- Jackson

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

Happy for you.

How would you answer my favorite question?

“How would you describe this to someone who has never heard of this?”

Take care,
S