Extra ordinary

[Anisha]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I experience the illusion of a supposedly real, inherent self as the source of all inner and outer conflict, struggle and suffering. It feels like a conditioned (socially/culturally enabled and reinforced) habit that humanity has become so accustomed and addicted to that most people tend to dismiss even questioning it as wildly unreasonable.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking have my beliefs and conditionings challenged and possibly shattered, and (ideally) being nudged over the cliff edge I feel I’ve been teetering on for much too long long already. I’m ready to jump and want to see Reality as it is.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping for a guided conversation to help me see my blind spots and delusions by being asked questions I don’t seem to be able to come up with myself. I’m desperate to get out of my way, and I hope that someone who has managed to do that for themself might point me in a direction that ends the clinging to this sleepy state of faux reality for good.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been a seeker for as long as I can remember, have dabbled in a variety of spiritual (and supposedly spiritual) practices for 30+ years, and have had a daily meditation practice (mainly traditional Buddhist methods such as Samatha and Vipassana, plus some Jhana practice) for the last 10 years, including about a dozen retreats ranging in length from 10 days to 3 months.

Over the years, I have had various glimpses, insights and shifts with regard to how I relate to ‚myself‘ and (what still very much seems to be) the external world. A good chunk of suffering seems to have fallen by the wayside in the process, and I have occasionally touched on ‚Truth‘ and ‚Reality‘ – enough to be certain that it is there, pervading everything and literally staring me in the face, yet it has been impossible to sustain that certainty as a default mode of seeing and being.

I started to do some self inquiry a few months ago, which tbh still feels a bit contrived – but I have a persistent suspicion that it might be a missing piece of the jigsaw. 😀

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

Stacy

[Anisha]

Hi Stacy,
thank you so much for offering your guidance in this process, I so appreciate it! My name is Jana, and I’m in the CEST time zone (that’s GMT+2 hours).

Sure, I’m happy to post every day – I occasionally suffer from migraines which can be quite debilitating; should an attack render me unable to post anything longer, then I'll at least post a note to let you know.

Yep, I have read the disclaimer and the “LU is not...” section in the FAQs.

Ok, now to your questions...

How will life change?

I have no idea and hence no expectations around it. Anything from ‘not at all’ to ‘drastically’ (or possibly both) is an option, I guess – however it plays out will be ok.

How will you change?

Again: I don’t know. I’m not expecting to change (or not to change) in any specific way and am happy to watch it unfold and play it by ear.

What will be different?

Everything and nothing? In the past, I’ve had glimpses of a reality in which the idea of a self was temporarily suspended, so I would imagaine it might be similar to those instances – less contracted, less filtered, not separate.

What is missing?

Nothing. Or wait: clarity, probably. I’d like to get out of the way of it.

Again: many thanks for lending me a hand with this!

Much love,
Jana

[Anastacia42]

Hi Jana!

You're welcome.

That's one of the best set of replies to the expectations questions I've seen. Little attachment & everything & nothing will change, a paradox. Yes, that's about it.

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be, that it is just an illusion?

Loving,
Stacy

[Anisha]

Hi Stacy,

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be, that it is just an illusion?

I know this to be true, based both on logic and the ‚glimpses‘ I mentioned in my last post, so what comes up is mainly a sense of longing for that state in which the habitual illusion of self is stripped of its persuasive power. It feels like a homesickness of sorts – which probably indicates some not overly helpful attachment/craving.

There’s also a somewhat exasperated sense of disbelief at seeing how much energy goes into constantly propping up the illusion of ‚I, me, mine‘ – I’m so tired of it, yet can’t seem to find the ‚off‘ switch! It’s mildly frustrating.

The irony is not lost on me that an illusory ‚I‘ is tired of establishing itself. 😄

(Thanks for prompting me to take a closer look!)

Love,
Jana

[Anastacia42]

Great, Jana. Those glimpses can be very helpful. That question checks for fear & you may not have any.

Fear & expectations are the only things that can prevent SEEING. Believing the stories our thoughts tell, instead of LOOKING.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

~ Stacy

[Anisha]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Oh yes, I’m very clear about the difference between intellectual/conceptual understanding (some sort of merely apparent ‚knowing‘ that is based on thoughts) and direct experience - the limits and dead-endedness of the former have made themselves painfully clear. :D

[Anastacia42]

That will help a lot. Then this should be easy for you. We'll see if we can move you out of all that exasperation.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy

[Anisha]

Hi Stacy,

an end to the exasperation would be most welcome for sure! :D Here are some of my observations from today:

Sitting on the grass in the garden
- Seeing the grass, the sky, the trees, the dappled shade; simply = colour and change of colours
- Hearing birdsong and the sound the breeze makes; simply = sound
- Feeling the movement of air and the warmth of the sun on the skin, the contact of the body with the ground; simply = sensation
- Scent of flowers wafting; simply = smell
- Memories arising; simply = thoughts

Conversation on the phone
- Hearing the phone ring; simply = sound
- Seeing the notification on the phone screen; simply = colour
- Mental image of the caller arising; simply = thought
- Answering the phone by tapping the screen; simply = sensation
- Feeling the earphones; simply = sensation
- Listening to the other person’s voice, pondering what they’re saying; simply = sound, thoughts
- Hearing my own voice speak; simply = sound, thoughts

Eating dinner
- Seeing the food on the plate; simply = colour
- Smelling the food; simply = smell
- Thought about eating the food; simply = thought
- Tasting the different flavours of the food; simply = taste
- Hearing the cutlery on the plate; simply = sound
- Thinking that the asparagus is overcooked; simply = thought

Writing an email
- Seeing the screen and hands on the keyboard; simply = colour
- Hearing the fingers press keys; simply = sound
- Feeling the fingertips touch the keys, registering discomfort in my left eye; simply = sensation
- Thinking about how to word something; simply = thought

Painting a door
- Feeling the surface of the door; simply = sensation
- Applying the paint, checking for evenness; simply = colour, sound, thought
- Smelling the paint; simply = smell
- Seeing and feeling a splash of paint land on my hand; simply = colour, sensation


The above are obviously only the main ‘key frames’ of experience – any of which could be broken down into more detailed instant-by-instant categories of micro-events contained therein.

Bedtime for me now (simply = thought) – good night :)
Jana

[Anastacia42]

Hi Jana,

Good work. Yes.

Bedtime for me now (simply = thought) – good night :)

Funny. :) We do want this to permeate your daily awareness. SEEING only happens written we relax into Direct Experience.

Now how about this?

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

~ Stacy

[Anisha]

Hi again Stacey,

this...

SEEING only happens written we relax into Direct Experience.

...has really been on my mind today – mostly (I think) because it hadn’t occurred to me before that there seems to be a habitual avoidance or a recoiling from direct experience. That that is indeed so became instantly clear upon reading your statement. How very odd! As if unfiltered, undistorted, unlabelled experience were a threat against which this bodymind unit needed to protect itself against – the mind boggles. Anyway, thanks for mentioning it, that was helpful.

The mind labelling exercise has yielded quite clear results too:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second version – just using verbs – is obviously truer, because the ‘I’ is merely an assumption, a conceptual construct, nowhere to be found. Making a fictitious entity the centre of experience seems nonsensical (even though most of us spend their entire life doing just that).

2. What is here without labels?

Without labels, all there is are phenomena arising and passing, plus experience that is being created out of this coming and going of appearances.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They clearly affect the experience. Labels seem to draw on some sort of database connected to the implied self’s past experiences, assumptions and expectations, along with all its acquired habits of perceiving, interpreting, judging – which makes for a thick overlay of filters distorting the raw data. Come to think of it, labelling looks like a rather absurd top-down way of imputing a supposed 'reality'.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body felt more spacious and relaxed when sensory experience was described without the involvement of a perceiver subject, whereas the ‘I’ descriptions came with the familiar energetic contraction that suggests the existence of a separate entity which, moreover, seems to be in a constant struggle to make sure it is not being threatened by anything perceived as external to it.

We are such weird creatures! :D

Love,
Jana

[Anastacia42]

Hi Jana,

Glad that was helpful.

Yes to most of your replies on the pointer, but I'm going to challenge #3 with a couple more pointers.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
They clearly affect the experience. Labels seem to draw on some sort of database connected to the implied self’s past experiences, assumptions and expectations, along with all its acquired habits of perceiving, interpreting, judging – which makes for a thick overlay of filters distorting the raw data. Come to think of it, labelling looks like a rather absurd top-down way of imputing a supposed 'reality'.

Try this:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,
Stacy

[Anisha]

Good morning, Stacy –

of course I agree: labels and ‘reality’ dont have any reliable correspondence (more likely, rather, very often there is none), nor are labels inherent characteristics of anything that is perceived.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

The way you wrote it, there is an experience of red shapes.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Red, obviously.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

I don’t even know what reality actually is, so: no, a one-to-one correspondence between labels and reality is highly unlikely – and yes, the label suggests something else other than the red colour it is written in.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

The latter, clearly.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Nope, not at all.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

They don’t have any effect on ‘reality’, no.

Let me know what is SEEN.

As I said in answer to the first question, in a literal sense, what is seen is red shapes (...and even ‘red’ and ‘shape’ are arbitrary labels based on convention). In terms of 'insight', it is evident that the realms of experience and the realm of labelling don’t touch.


Wishing you a happy day,
Jana

[Anastacia42]

Great, Jana.

So, now how would you answer:

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Loving,
Stacy

[Anisha]

So, now how would you answer:

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

...ah, I can see now how that question was meant! I did get subjective and objective vantage points of experience mixed up earlier (...yes, I know, ‘subjective’ and ‘objective’ are dubious terms and mere assumptions – alas, the constraints of language!).

Well then, obviously: labels describe (with all the problems I mentioned in my previous answer to the question), but cannot affect the experience. :)