Investigating

[Jackson137]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand we will embark on a guided examination to see if there is such a thing as a self/me/I in this body-mind.

What are you looking for at LU? I’m interested to engage in this inquiry with a guide to help bring some leverage to the inquiry process with a community who has found practices and/or dialogue skills to help pinpoint errors or encourage looking in directions that may not have happened without a guide.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect to be ruthlessly questioned if there is a self and to consistently be encouraged to report on direct experience and not fly off into thought-content land. In terms of the results, I have no idea what to expect!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? 7 years of Buddhist Meditation of many sorts, non-dual self inquiry etc

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson, my name is Sandra and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Share a little of your story so far, what brings you here?

What do you expect will happen?

Sandra

[Jackson137]

Hello Sandra,

Thank you for helping to guide me. I understand the ground rules and I'm happy to post each day.

Share a little of your story so far, what brings you here?

I've done a lot of spiritual seeking over the past 7ish years. Lots of meditation and self inquiry. Mainly in various buddhist traditions and with Advaita teachers. Years ago I met someone in a Zen group that was also experienced guiding people through LU. At the time I was not familiar with LU and he guided me through email. Our dialogue consisted of me answering questions using a (S) after a sentence if it referred to sensations in direct experience and then a (T) if the sentence was coming from thought content. I had a an experience of viscerally seeing no-self. Eventually after a day or two that experience faded and I began to doubt that I had "truly" seen through no-self even though I don't believe in a self and can see it is just thought content. Still there seems like a possibility for development further beyond this initial seeing experience.

A few weeks ago I was poking along the LU site and I began following some threads and doing the experiments other guides recommended in those threads. I had another one of these intense "experiences", which faded after several days.

What do you expect will happen?

Now I don't expect these explosive experiences to be a maintained state of mind. When they happen it's great, but trying to create them seems to cause a lot of struggle/pain. At this point I don't necessarily expect our dialogue to lead to anything specific, but it still seems there is plenty to explore and deepen.

- Jackson

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

It's wonderful to have you here, and thank you for sharing some of your story so far.

Now I don't expect these explosive experiences to be a maintained state of mind. When they happen it's great, but trying to create them seems to cause a lot of struggle/pain. At this point I don't necessarily expect our dialogue to lead to anything specific, but it still seems there is plenty to explore and deepen.

Nicely put. Just keep in mind that any expectations of what will happen are just that - expectations. They are just thoughts of what may or may not happen in a future that hasn't happened yet. All I ask is that you put them to one side, just for now, and accept whatever happens. Remember, reality has no respect for expectations, it simply is as you find it, and it's a very beautiful thing.

What thoughts, feelings, and sensations come up for you when you read the statement below -

There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be.

Sandra

[Jackson137]

What thoughts, feelings, and sensations come up for you when you read the statement below -

There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be.

In terms of feelings and sensations. There is no change in direct experience when I read that there is no "me" or "i" in reality, never was, and never will be.

Thoughts come up with the content of: It seems like there are different degrees of this realization, or that this realization can deepen. There does seem to be a difference between an initial seeing vs a stabilized ongoing perceptual shift.

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

In terms of feelings and sensations. There is no change in direct experience when I read that there is no "me" or "i" in reality, never was, and never will be.

OK

Thoughts come up with the content of: It seems like there are different degrees of this realization, or that this realization can deepen. There does seem to be a difference between an initial seeing vs a stabilized ongoing perceptual shift.

Yes, to me it also seems there is a difference between seeing there is no self and the deepening of this realization.

Seeing is immediate, non verbal, easy, done in this every present here/now.
The deepening of the realization implies thinking about it - so that it can be known/understood - and an integration that seems to happen in time - a kind of "living" from this seeing that happens in ups and downs.

I think a initial seeing is similar to all the other seeings that happen after that. When I look now my seeing of no self is equal to the seeing that happened 9 years ago: I look to what is present and I can't see a self. Done deal. Game over.

Then there is the ongoing of the stabilization, yes. The way I live with this realization is very different than the way I did after a day of having seen, after a month, after a year, etc. Life is an ongoing, fortunately.

There does seem to be a difference between an initial seeing vs a stabilized ongoing perceptual shift.

Do you believe one thing negates the other? If you do, why?

Did you agree with the statement "There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be."?

What EXACTLY are you referring to when you say 'I'?

Sandra

[Jackson137]

Sandra,

Thanks for your reply! = )

There does seem to be a difference between an initial seeing vs a stabilized ongoing perceptual shift.

Do you believe one thing negates the other? If you do, why?

No I don't believe one negates the other, but there is a belief that they are different things.

Did you agree with the statement "There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be."?

Yes I agree with this statement!

What EXACTLY are you referring to when you say 'I'?

In direct experience when I say "I", especially in a conversation with someone, it is simply a shorthand for this body/mind.

There are also thoughts of continuity or familiarity of this body that are often referred to as I out of convention, especially when communicating with people.

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

No I don't believe one negates the other, but there is a belief that they are different things.

Okay. Yes, I also think we can consider they are different.

Yes I agree with this statement!

Why?

There are also thoughts of continuity or familiarity of this body that are often referred to as I out of convention, especially when communicating with people.

Yes.

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

Did you agree with the statement "There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be."?

Yes I agree with this statement!

Why?

If attention is moved towards direct experience and thoughts are seen separate from their content then it can be clearly seen in any moment that any "I", "me" or "mine" must just be more thought content.

My intuition is that when I "lost" the seeing of no-self years ago all I actually lost was an intense experience. The seeing of no-self in direct experience has remained but there was a desire or expectation for it to continue. Now this desire has been seen to be silly.

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

If attention is moved towards direct experience and thoughts are seen separate from their content then it can be clearly seen in any moment that any "I", "me" or "mine" must just be more thought content.

I understand what you are saying but can you find any experience that isn't a direct, immediate experience? (are you having a non direct experience when it seems you are lost in thoughts?)

then it can be clearly seen in any moment that any "I", "me" or "mine" must just be more thought content.

When you say must it seems that you are trying to convince yourself. What do you mean by "it can be clearly seen in any moment"? What do you think seeing is?

My intuition is that when I "lost" the seeing of no-self years ago all I actually lost was an intense experience. The seeing of no-self in direct experience has remained but there was a desire or expectation for it to continue. Now this desire has been seen to be silly.

Ahah, I understand what you are saying. I also had a wonderful, intense experience when I saw for the first time. And it also seemed to fade away after a while. I think the practice of seeing is like most things, if you don't use it, you lose it. That is probably one of the reasons I guide.

It seems you may be judging yourself somehow when you say that desire seems to be silly? I think wanting wonderful experiences to happen isn't silly. It's in our nature, it seems. Sometimes it seems to have the opposite effect. Wanting the experience made you think you lost what seem to cause it and it didn't help with reliving the experience.

Can you really lose the ability to see what is here now?

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

Hello again!

There are some great questions and reflections here, thank you!

can you find any experience that isn't a direct, immediate experience? (are you having a non direct experience when it seems you are lost in thoughts?)

No, there is only direct experience, even if there are thoughts those are part of direct experience.

When you say must it seems that you are trying to convince yourself. What do you mean by "it can be clearly seen in any moment"? What do you think seeing is?

By seeing I mean looking at direct experience, not necessarily a visual type of seeing. By "clearly in any moment" I mean that when I look at my direct experience it can be seen that any thoughts about an I are actually just a thought with content of an I.

It seems you may be judging yourself somehow when you say that desire seems to be silly?

I think a better way I could have said it is that desiring experiences itself is fine, it would actually make sense to desire positive experiences. I meant it was silly to demand that certain experiences should become a new norm or stay around for any certain amount of time.

Can you really lose the ability to see what is here now?

No, but there does seem like a generally ability to be able to tell the difference between a thought in direct experience vs the content of the thought in direct experience. It's not like you lose the ability, but the contents of thoughts changes. Sometimes this thought content contains an "I" even though it can be seen to be content.

[Canfora]

Hi Jackson,

By seeing I mean looking at direct experience, not necessarily a visual type of seeing. By "clearly in any moment" I mean that when I look at my direct experience it can be seen that any thoughts about an I are actually just a thought with content of an I.

Do you see thoughts when you look? - and by look I mean a visual seeing. Can you see thoughts among all else that you can see right now?

I think a better way I could have said it is that desiring experiences itself is fine, it would actually make sense to desire positive experiences. I meant it was silly to demand that certain experiences should become a new norm or stay around for any certain amount of time.

Yes!

No, but there does seem like a generally ability to be able to tell the difference between a thought in direct experience vs the content of the thought in direct experience. It's not like you lose the ability, but the contents of thoughts changes. Sometimes this thought content contains an "I" even though it can be seen to be content.

It seems you are placing your attention in thoughts instead of observing what is here?

Seeing is a non verbal experience. What I mean by this is that when you observe you are having a direct experience that doesn't depend on thinking. I don't need to think to see colors, shapes, shadows, light, etc. Thinking about what I am seeing may happen but it doesn't create the seeing and if I stop thinking about what I can see, what is here doesn't disappear.

Check if what I'm saying is similar in your own experience.

Look at something.

Think about that something.

Think about something else.

Does what you were looking at transform or disappear or whatever when you aren't thinking about it? Or when you are thinking about it?

Can thought do something to what is being seen or not seen?

Anyway, is it possible to not see what is here now as it is?

Now I'm thinking that a possible answer is yes, if I close my eyes I can't see what is here. I suppose seeing with eyes closed would still be seeing "as it is" :)

Take care,
S

[Jackson137]

Do you see thoughts when you look? - and by look I mean a visual seeing. Can you see thoughts among all else that you can see right now?

Yes, there are definitely thoughts that come that are visual. There are also thoughts that are auditory.

It seems you are placing your attention in thoughts instead of observing what is here?

I just meant that it can be seen in direct experience there is a difference between thoughts as something in direct experience vs the content of the thought. As in, now im thinking of a unicorn, it is a thought but there is no actual unicorn present in my living room is the content isn’t necessarily real.

is it possible to not see what is here now as it is?

What is seen is seen.

It does seem quite possible to mistake content of thought for something that is real beyond thought.

[Canfora]

Hello. I will reply to your last post tomorrow.

We are going to have a zoom meting Jun 6, 2022 05:00 AM Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney time.
To me that will be tomorrow, Jun 5 - 20pm London time.

You are invited.

Then meetings are going to be fortnightly:

Jun 20, 2022 05:00 AM

Jul 4, 2022 05:00 AM

Jul 18, 2022 05:00 AM

Aug 1, 2022 05:00 AM

Join Zoom Meeting

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 68#success
Passcode: 083035

How to Calculate Your Time Zone for Meetings
Use this easy time zone page link below.
Put your time zone in the top section (leave the time blank)
5 am Monday Canberra, Australia in the bottom section.
And vouila! The local time that it will be for you when it's 5 am in Canberra will fill in the blank time you left.
https://dateful.com/time-zone-converter
OR simply go to Google & type:
What time is it in (wherever you are or a major city near you) when it is 5 am Monday in Canberra, Australia?

[Canfora]

Yes, there are definitely thoughts that come that are visual. There are also thoughts that are auditory.

I'm not talking about seeing the content of thoughts, I'm talking about seeing thoughts.

I suppose that if you look you see something similar to this:

A space full of things. In the space you are, can you see thoughts?

I just meant that it can be seen in direct experience there is a difference between thoughts as something in direct experience vs the content of the thought. As in, now im thinking of a unicorn, it is a thought but there is no actual unicorn present in my living room is the content isn’t necessarily real.

Yes.

It does seem quite possible to mistake content of thought for something that is real beyond thought.

Can you give me some examples please? How does this happen?