It's just time to do this

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

It is not the responsibility of water to flow, or the flower to bloom. There is no responsibility for actions. They flow and unfold out of conditions. Actions. Are. Empty.

Wow.
What is to find out that there never was someone responsible, yet responsibility happens?

Can not carring about the kids, a house or a chirch happen at all?

I will respond to the previous message later.

Much love to you
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Good morning Dear Luchana,

Can not carring about the kids, a house or a chirch happen at all?

Last night, I sat down to play a card game with my husband, to connect a bit, and it arose to look closely at who was actually playing the card game, and who actually said yes to playing.

Previously, it has felt more urgent to unravel who is doing or not doing in the stressful moments, but it arose to look in the quiet, easy moment, and to see that nothing but prior conditioning was at play. (hah! Literally and figuratively.)

The saying yes to a game arose from prior (and not true) thoughts and beliefs about a me and a him and a relationship and a future (that might unfold differently if an "I" didn't tend to the relationship). Nothing else was there to say yes. Not a Sue. I don't think even awareness was what said yes. Awareness was just aware-ing, it didn't "decide" to say yes. Yes unfolded from all the experiences that came before.

And of course the playing happened out of past conditions that I have always called learning without looking at it closely. I (This Here) knows how to play the game because previous conditions had imparted the stories needed to play the game.

Cooking? Cleaning? Church board work? Gardening? Playing? Talking? Writing? All the activities I would have defined as being done by a unique (and uninterrogated sense of) me, now seem absolutely to be unfolding from all that came before -- cultural conditioning, family conditioning, thoughts arising without control or personal meaning.

The resisting cooking and cleaning and church board work? More arising from past conditioning.

The embracing of play and gardening? Just more arising, a more pleasant arising, out of past conditions.

All of it a huge, open, empty, glorious flow, through this/here/now.

much love and gratitude, as "I" return to the arising flow here,

Sue

[Luchana]

Good morning Sue,

All of it a huge, open, empty, glorious flow, through this/here/now.

what a beautiful insights.

much love and gratitude, as "I" return to the arising flow here,

Look - is there a you and a flow?
Is there someone or something floating IN the flow?
Or there is just flow..uncluding thoughts, sensations, including a thought about "I" aswell

Much love and see you tonight :-)

Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Good morning to a thought of Luchana on the other side of the world!

Look - is there a you and a flow?
Is there someone or something floating IN the flow?
Or there is just flow..uncluding thoughts, sensations, including a thought about "I" aswell

Ah, yes, when the thinking that is this LU work is engaged with, there is an unexamined thought that the thinking is in some way separate whatever doing might come next.

Maybe because the thoughts are, in a way, separate, in the sense that they can't control the doing. It's co-arising, not controlling.

Maybe more so because the thought processes that bring clearer seeing seem to result in a different felt-sense experience than the identification with thoughts of a separate Sue, and so they are taken to be different and separate experiences.

Hmmm. The clearer seeing and the identification with the thoughts of a Sue are the same -- is that true?

Yes, they are the same experience flowing when they arise here and now. There are judgment thoughts that one is better than the other, but they are experiences being experienced. Equal.

They are experiences being experienced, is that true? Are they being experienced by something separate? (ah, there's still that thought creeping in to language.) I don't know what experiences. I can say it's not a Sue anymore. Is everything experiencing itself? It feels too abstract to be called true or understood right now.

Is there a witness and a flow? No. There is one flow of experiencing, arising sometimes as this direct looking (which seems to be mostly thoughts too.) A sense of a witness Looking arises here, because this experience of thinking feels different from the more common experience of thinking that comments based on an unquestioned story of Sue.

Is there a difference between the clear-seeing moments and the story-attached moments that points to a witness?
No. No separation can be pointed to. Not even the line when one turns into the other, because suddenly, I'm not sure what time is or if it exists. The moment that I would point to as attachment turning into seeing can't be found except as a story of a recent past when attachment existed. I cannot prove that I was ever anything but this now which is changing so fast I can't even keep up with it in words or thoughts.

That's probably enough thoughts for now, hahahaha!

Much love here

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

No. No separation can be pointed to. Not even the line when one turns into the other, because suddenly, I'm not sure what time is or if it exists. The moment that I would point to as attachment turning into seeing can't be found except as a story of a recent past when attachment existed. I cannot prove that I was ever anything but this now which is changing so fast I can't even keep up with it in words or thoughts.

Exactly :-)

That's probably enough thoughts for now, hahahaha!

I like your sence of humor so much :-)))

On our last meeting we spoke about the so called final questions which we ask at this stage.. they are all about seeing trough the illusion of a separate self.

So are you ready for them?
Are there any doubts?
Can you say with 100 % certainty that there is no such thing as a separate entity, a self, me controlling the experience of whatever is happening?

Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

So are you ready for them?

Are there any doubts?

Can you say with 100 % certainty that there is no such thing as a separate entity, a self, me controlling the experience of whatever is happening?

[MsBlueSky]

Oh dear, there was a ghost in the machine there, hahaha!

Good morning Luchana!

So are you ready for them?

It appears so this morning.

Are there any doubts?

I have been checking in with my experience of these questions all weekend, and for a while, it felt like there might be doubt, but when examined, there wasn't really anything much to it.

There was a worry that I've substituted a story of conditioning and previous happenings as an explanation for why "Sue" seems to be a coherent and often predictable unfolding, and I was worried that was just a new type of identification. That I'd moved from "I am Sue" to "I am the witnessing consciousness" to "I am empty conditioning and collective unfolding" as a thing that retains separation. But that worry doesn't feel too real or meaningful, when examined. I'm open to further questioning about it.

There was a worry that the continued ability to become mesmerized by the story of Sue meant I wasn't ready/done. But the self-story-telling (both telling a story of a self, and telling it to myself and seeming to believe it in the moment) seems to be breaking more quickly, is seen sooner and with an ease to the putting it down and walking away from it.

This process feels like a continuing unfolding, in terms of seeing new pieces of conditioning, or responding to old pieces differently, and that doesn't mean anything particularly about the story of a gate being passed through.

There is also the doubt about "not feeling one with everything," haha, but that appears to not be a given for every experience of "gating."

Can you say with 100 % certainty that there is no such thing as a separate entity, a self, me controlling the experience of whatever is happening?

Yes. Whatever shapes the unfolding activity is not a self or a me, though the semi-coherency and semi-predictability of the actions arising here do seem to be explained by past conditions shaping the present, so there is a story still arising to explain or hypothesize about why it looks like a Sue -- that past events and conditions that were experienced from this body and brain are creating a pattern that has some recognizable motifs or coherency to it that looks like a "Sue".

Much love and appreciation,
Sue

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

There was a worry that I've substituted a story of conditioning and previous happenings as an explanation for why "Sue" seems to be a coherent and often predictable unfolding, and I was worried that was just a new type of identification. That I'd moved from "I am Sue" to "I am the witnessing consciousness" to "I am empty conditioning and collective unfolding" as a thing that retains separation. But that worry doesn't feel too real or meaningful, when examined. I'm open to further questioning about it.

Oh, I see. Let's look these than :-)
"I am the witnessing consciousness" to "I am empty conditioning and collective unfolding", "I am empty conditioning and collective unfolding"
You have notice very well that this worry doesn't feel too real :-)
Yea, it is a common belief/concept, which is quite enchanting, since this romantic idea leaves a room for the imaginary self to be something real.

But is there witnessing consciousness?

And what is witnessing what precisely?

And how witnessing consciousness or collective unfolding is experiencing exactly?

There is also the doubt about "not feeling one with everything," haha, but that appears to not be a given for every experience of "gating."

Where does a "you" begin or ends and everything else starts or ends?


Is there a you and everything?
Is there SOMETHING to be one with everything?



Have fun while looking at these questions :-)

And I am going the send the final questions in the next reply.

Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Thank you for these great questions, Luchana.

But is there witnessing consciousness?

No, none can be found. There is experiencing, of everything in range of perception (which as far as I can know is Everything) and of thoughts. Thoughts are sometimes most of what is being perceived, but even there, perception sneaks in to awareness as a faintly-noticed sound or feeling.

And what is witnessing what precisely?

Right, this is the thought that continues to arise, the duality that if perception is happening, there must be a perceiver; If past conditions shape behavior arising here, there is a "here" and a "there" that is affected by different past conditioning.

There is no witness separate from the unfolding moment. The unfolding moment contains its own perception and experiencing in a way that cannot be grasped here.

And how witnessing consciousness or collective unfolding is experiencing exactly?

Collective unfolding -- I am working here to tease out what is believed with that thought. There is still an impulse to separate out a scrap of the all and say that it has boundaries and stories of a past that can explain or predict how life unfolds in that piece.

Where does a "you" begin or ends and everything else starts or ends?

I have an image of rolling fields in a wide-open landscape, and some garden bed fencing in a square that is plonked down in the middle of the field, enclosing a small patch of it, as a Sue. And me trying to answer the question of where Sue ends and the rest of existence begins. And me wanting to point to that fence, even though the grass and the soil and the air and the sunlight roll on and on, without separation, to the end of perception. Because sitting on the ground inside of the fence, all the contained grass can be touched, the fence can be felt, and what is beyond it can't be reached or directly experienced with touch, though it is experienced with sight and smell and sound.

The limits of touch and the skin's nerve endings have been mistaken for separation, for confirmation of duality, for as long as can be remembered here. And it has never been noticed that sight and smell and hearing roll on much farther out from the point of perception, and could be used as proof of no boundary at skin's edge.

Is there a you and everything?

There is a thought that "me" is enmeshed with all the surrounding reality. And that is still duality. Yes, this is a piece of spiritual thought that has been running unseen -- "the interconnection of all things" -- which still implies a separation. Separate things that are deeply interconnected and impact each other.

Is there a me that is deeply interconnected with the life I am in contact with? Or is there just life -- rich, vast life (not even unfolding, because that implies time which does not exist except as a story, a way of communicating a tiny bit of the all-ness.)

There is a felt-sense of this. Yes. When awareness is open to this, it floods in and is... overwhelming... just everything everywhere is all there is. Words are terrible to describe this! But yes, to answer the next question, There is nothing to be one with everything, there is just everything everywhere all at once, as that movie title says.

Is there SOMETHING to be one with everything?

Thank you, Luchana, for the pointing, so much appreciated as always <3

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

There is no witness separate from the unfolding moment. The unfolding moment contains its own perception and experiencing in a way that cannot be grasped here.

Right :-)

I have an image of rolling fields in a wide-open landscape, and some garden bed fencing in a square that is plonked down in the middle of the field, enclosing a small patch of it, as a Sue. And me trying to answer the question of where Sue ends and the rest of existence begins. And me wanting to point to that fence, even though the grass and the soil and the air and the sunlight roll on and on, without separation, to the end of perception. Because sitting on the ground inside of the fence, all the contained grass can be touched, the fence can be felt, and what is beyond it can't be reached or directly experienced with touch, though it is experienced with sight and smell and sound.

Beautiful image.. beautiful content of a thought :-)

Is this true in reality?
Can this be REALLY seen?
No? why not?

There is a felt-sense of this. Yes. When awareness is open to this, it floods in and is... overwhelming... just everything everywhere is all there is. Words are terrible to describe this! But yes, to answer the next question, There is nothing to be one with everything, there is just everything everywhere all at once, as that movie title says.

And because you mentioned ones or twice awarenees, let's look at it


What is awareness when you don't think about awareness?

What is awareness when is it looked at here now?

Is it possible to experience awareness with one of the sences?

Or it is experienced only as a content of a thought?

Thank you, Luchana, for the pointing, so much appreciated as always <3

Thank you for your kind words and willingness to look.

Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Good morning, Luchana,

I've spent the past few days going through the Enlightening Quotes app, noticing how pieces of the writing land differently now, and looking for the places where there is still stickiness and belief in concepts.

Beautiful image.. beautiful content of a thought :-)
Is this true in reality?
Can this be REALLY seen?
No? why not?

No, just thoughts, images arising, seeming to support a story of a someone trying to hold up a story of a self.

What is awareness when you don't think about awareness?

Not a thing. Does not exist without a thought of "awareness" or "being aware" or "not having been aware." And any of those thoughts are about a past that doesn't exist either.

What is awareness when is it looked at here now?

Nothing separate from what is, what can be perceived directly in this moment that is non-stop change and can't even itself be pointed to as anything but constant flow. There is no awareness as a separate thing, it's a mental concept, a thought only. There is all that can be perceived in constant motion of unfolding.

Is it possible to experience awareness with one of the sences?

No. There is what is happening now. That can be sense input. That can be thoughts. That toggles back and forth between the two. No thing called awareness exists to be here sometimes but not other times, to break identification with thinking and perceive sense input instead. Awareness is an abstract concept, another thought form.

Or it is experienced only as a content of a thought?

Yes. This is true.

Love,
Sue

[Luchana]

Hi dear Sue,

thank you for your beautiful replies.

I'm sending you the so called final quesitons. They will put an end only of this tread here and as you already know - there is no end to this :-) We just scratched the surface.

Take as much time as you need and reply as fully as you see it at the moment.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Hi Luchana :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. There is no thing here. No self. No witness watching. No awareness being aware of something it is separate from. There was not ever a self.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

The illusion of separate self is nothing but thought after thought about an "I" that has control, an I that needs to take action, an I that can make mistakes, that has responsibilities, that wants, that doesn't want. Just thought after thought. Then emotions/physical reactions to those thoughts because they are believed.

The phrases "what are you doing?!" "Why did you do that?!" and "who do you think you are, young lady?!" keep popping up, when I think about how this all started. The felt sense of beingness, just pure doing/watching/moving without much thought, interrupted by adults who demanded that an "I" explain herself pops up as a thought complex assumed to be a memory.

The illusion of a separate self shows up entirely and only as thoughts that, amusingly, often have "you" as the subject instead of the fictional "I". So many thoughts appear that seem to be the exact words of the parent who passed them along. "You need to do this!" "you should have done that already!" "why can't you do X differently?" "you shouldn't have done that."

Sometimes the thoughts that create a sense of a self arise, in "I" form, but they are usually simpler, body-related thoughts. "I'm hungry." "I'm tired." "My leg hurts." They are more useful and accurate in that they tend to be talking about a sensory experience.

There is nothing in direct experience that shows any separation from the whole fabric of reality.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Like a big exhale, a sigh of relief. A dulling of the mind chatter, though it is still there. There's a quiet that is louder, more deeply felt, if that makes sense. Stillness is more present. There is a sense of ease, a willingness to wait to see what arises. I did identify with a fearful thought yesterday but it is seen so much more quickly, and it falls away so much more cleanly now. The stickiness, returning over and over to the thought/experience/rehearsal of a future either isn't there or is quickly seen and set aside.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Oh, so much shifted in small but meaningful ways. I am calmer. This one here flows with developments so much easier. Ideas, plans, actions arise with ease and a grounded certainty, when they arise, with a sense of rightness and an aha moment type of knowing that the self-doubting, over-thinking mind energy usually doesn't even bother to arise. :)
There is a patience and trust in the unfolding.

Not nearly so much defensiveness arising in my closest relationships. Nothing to defend there anymore. That still feels a little odd and detached, but there was a strong conditioning towards drama and conflict that had long been seen and worked against, and that is both falling away and perhaps leaving a stronger felt-sense of emptiness as it goes.

There is also habitual drama energy still arising, to read and engage on Twitter mostly, hah! -- an engagement with the larger thought stream, but reactions to reading those thoughts are shifting as well -- more understanding of conditioning and patterns playing out, more trust in a possible better outcome, less meaningfulness ascribed to it all. It is a habit of information gathering, not needed, but still arising with some frequency compared to some of these other thoughts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It's funny, there have been a few things said or read that felt really "big" and I would write them down and re-read them but pretty quickly they became mundane feeling. Whatever conditioning had been highlighted by those new thoughts fell away and then the pointer seemed almost meaningless. I am struggling similarly to recall what the most recent moments of "of course!" have been.

Honestly, every time I sat down to answer the questions from you, Luchana, nudged me closer and closer.

They seem so simple and the answer probably obvious (though never actually looked at directly until written down, interestingly).

But every time it was written down, direct seeing arose and the deeper layers of direct seeing built a trust in the process and then a certainty that there was no self here, no self there, just life unfolding.

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decision is a fiction, an after-the-fact arising of a thought that "I" decided.

Intention is a little less clear word to me. If it means "will" and "actively choosing to do", then it's a fiction.

If it means a non-random movement towards a certain action or behavior, then there is no self or separate consciousness to have intention, but patterns are noticed to be unfolding.

Some energy arose here to see through the illusion, but it can't have been intended by any one or thing. It must have been another way life unfolds.

Yeah, there can be no intention, because there is no intender. The patterns and conditioning unfolding is not evidence of intention, though I do appreciate that the energy arose here to see directly and clearly what is and is not.

Free Will is as silly a concept as you can get! It is so clear that thoughts arise with no control and are manifestations of cultural, familial, and personal conditioning and who knows what else. Totally unknowable origins. Totally uncontrollable arising. Nothing else here to exert a will.

Choice and control are same. Nothing is running this show to choose or to control and it is so obvious once seen. All of suffering is the belief that an "I" has preferences and and an "I" should have or (the actual reality) does not have control. I don't have control is both truth and suffering when believed it should be otherwise.

What makes things happen? No earthly idea! Why am I sitting her at a computer, answering these questions right this moment? I can spin a more believable story now of conditions unfolding from the previous conditions according to some unknown and unknowable set of connections. Or a story that life is life-ing/flowing/experiencing endlessly. Both are still just stories. This is not knowable, what makes things happen.

From recent experience, how things work? I have no idea what happens when waking up happens. I can tell a story that I woke up this morning but it happened a couple of hours ago and I can't prove that.

This is actually really hard to answer, because it's clear I'm spinning a story as soon as I start to type. But I suppose that is necessary to answer the questions, so... how things work is movement and stillness and thoughts arise in whatever order they arise. A voice here arises as a thought, a voice there arises and a thought and words from an apparent other, and might spur movement or action here, or not.

There is an ease and a seeming rightness of action and thought that flows more frequently and without effort here now.

To give an actually specific example: A president-elect posts some outraged thoughts about a dysfunctional neighboring congregation to our church board online discussion space. It arises to consider the situation from the role and experience of being president here.

The flicker of annoyance and worry about what is seen as unskillful over-reaction falls away as soon as it is noticed. An answering thought arises and is typed that feels surprisingly easy, compassionate, and wise, without effort, without the actual application of thought that can be seen, just an arising. Then it is done. There's an urge to revel in the new way "work" arises and gets done and an urge to feel special and better than before,, but the thoughts are easily seen and don't continue to arise, nor does second guessing or worrying thoughts, as it is recalled that they used to.

5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Not a blessed thing, lol! I have apparent roles I'm filling, in my family, at church, amongst friends, wherever. Interactions arise. A response appears here. Or not. It all flows pretty easily now. When it doesn't flow, it's interesting to look at why it's getting reactive or stuck.

I'm more clear that I'm not in any way responsible for what arises or doesn't out of the conditioning and wherever-it-is that thoughts and actions arise from, than I am that I don't exist. There's still a habit pattern of thinking as a me, but every time it is examined directly it is completely empty, so I assume it will fade with time. I don't go around beatifically hugging people and trees, but I do feel benevolence and rightness and amazement as I move through time and space in ways I haven't for a very long time if ever.

I don't think there's anything to add. The words flow a lot here, still, lol.

Love,
Sue

[Luchana]

Hi dear Sue,

thank you for your beautiful replies.
I'm going to share them with the other feloow guises and they may or may not have some further questions for you.
I will come back here soon.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi dear Sue,

the other guides have no further questions for you which means that you've crashed the gateless gate so to speak. But as you already know there is no one to crash the gate and there is no gate even:-)
And even though it may feels as ending - it is far from it.
It's just the first step, the beginning of a wonderful falling without a landing.
You will receive a message from admin and your name will turn into blue. The admin will invite you in the LU FB group where I will be waiting for you - in case you decided to join. There are more resources here in the forum and there are also monthly LU meetings, in which you are most welcome. It is so nice to have a company.

Here is the info for this weekend meetings.

LU monthly meetup
3rd sat 6pm UK time & Sunday 10am London UK time each month
Topic: Unleashed Monthly Meeting
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853…
Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4

I so appreciate your willingness to look and your commitment to this dialog. So much enjoyed the time with you. Just to know that I am here, available when you have an impulse to share something or to look together.

Much love and see you soon!

Luchana