Finding Me

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:52 am

We just need to clean up those pesky doubt thoughts.
There’s no “I” here except in thoughts, but… with that being the case, how can I say that there is no “I” here? It seems like the “I” is saying it. I see that this question is just a thought, but it is a nagging one.

Is there anything to practice? Although, even this question implies a do-er, and there is none here.

Do you maintain continual, constant awareness of no self - of your true nature? Sometimes I still seemingly get lost in my day, and in thoughts. I can feel that I was never “lost,” but it still seems that way once I “remember.”

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:21 pm

Good evening Bryan,
There’s no “I” here except in thoughts, but… with that being the case, how can I say that there is no “I” here? It seems like the “I” is saying it. I see that this question is just a thought, but it is a nagging one.
Are thoughts controlled? ..or do they just happen?
..but the 'flavor' of your thoughts are different to everyone else's. Right?
This is because your DNA and life experiences are unique.The habitual way your thoughts happen is conditioned by these things.
How many years of conditioning is behind the idea that a self has thoughts?
Can you see that thought gets triggered by what you are currently experiencing?
Have you worked out that language structure requires a subject and an object? ..when both of those only exist in thought and the actuality is a verb. i know that this might be difficult to get your head around, and I don't want you to believe anything that I say without confirming it in your experience.
Is there anything to practice?
Here, do this exercise to check out what I just said...
Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice thoughts labeling what you see.
Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.
Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?
Go back to simply watching thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, they will get bored and slow down. Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces. They may be milliseconds, but notice them.
There will be no labeling. ..and anyway, the colours, the textures, the shapes, etc will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?
When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that cup is a concept. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use? A concept that includes shape, form, color, what it is intended to be used for.
..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.
even this question implies a do-er, and there is none here.
Right. The exercise will demonstrate that there is only doing.
Do you maintain continual, constant awareness of no self - of your true nature?
No. Absolutely not. As humans, we are story creating machines. Most are crap, but some are useful.
The crap ones can be entertaining, but mostly they run in the background and aren't engaged with consciously. The story about tying my shoe laces or doing up buttons do their job without me being aware of them.
It would be exhausting to be constantly aware of everything. ..and I don't need to be. Once I recognize that self is a story that I respond to, it can happen automatically. If unpleasant emotions arrive then it is time to be aware of the story.

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:25 am

Bryan, there is a zoom meeting on Sunday that you might find interesting and useful. I'm inviting you...
Third weekend of every month
Saturday 19th Feb 6 pm-8 pm British time,
Sunday, 20th Feb 10 am-12 am British time
You can join both days or one depending your time zone.
The meetings will be led by Liberation Unleashed guides.
No agenda, no promises or expectations, just being and sharing together.
Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853...

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:20 pm

Oh, and here is the passcode:
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853?pw ... BoUUNwUT09

Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4\

v
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:39 am

Thanks, Vince! I’d love to join, pending time zone difference.

As for me… I can’t say I’m awakened. It feels impossible to say that about my self - there’s clearly no one here to awaken. I can say, however, that for much of my life, I now realize that I was in a trance of thought. Now, I don’t feel any suffering. I feel that hardcore “seeking” has taken a back seat. As in, I only really pursue it/read about these concepts and ideas for fun. I’m a bit unsure of what to do now. I guess I’ll go eat some dessert.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:13 pm

Good evening Bryan, i have been watching the videos of the 2 zoom meetups. (I'm about an hour into each so far) It's really interesting & a little amazing the different perspectives between the forum and the visual/audible.
i had resisted guiding by zoom (except for these meetups) up till now as I believed the forum allowed time for things to sink in. To be reread. To be able to consider, to reflect before responding. i thought that the immediacy of face to face meant that an important sentence could pass without impact.
Watching the meetings showed me that there is great value in this kind of interaction. That both together would be more impactful.
With this in mind, I'm thinking to organize a meetup with all of the ones that I'm guiding at the moment. Almost all of you have one foot through the gate, and a final push would do it.
Trying to find a time when the different time zones can coincide is the difficult part.
i will put it to the others and come back to you on this.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:34 pm

Look for PM re Sunday meetup

v
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:30 pm

check for PM

v
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:21 am

What is your practice these days, if any, Vince?

Things have been unfolding as they do, since we spoke last. I don’t feel like I need to do anything to know clearly that I am THIS, but I still enjoy the process.

Someone mentioned to focus on the “I” feeling; so I have been doing that.

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:23 am

P.S. things came up for me (family duties) each of these past Zoom call times. I would still love to join an upcoming on.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:30 am

G'day Bryan,
What is your practice these days, if any, Vince?
Guiding is what keeps me focused these days.
i no longer meditate or do yoga or read/watch spiritual stuff.
I would still love to join an upcoming on.
Did you get my pm about one coming up on Sunday? (look up the top of this page for notifications..)

Would you run through these questions for me and if nothing further comes up we can add you to some FB groups and you could even consider guiding yourself.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:51 am

Hey again Vince! Here we go…
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, only in thoughts. There was never a separate self; only the persistent thought of one. Let me reiterate, there IS still a separate self in thoughts. But I can clearly see these thoughts for what they are, and drop them.
2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
The illusion of a separate self shows up as a thought, or a collection of thoughts, about a “me” which is separate from other objects and entities. Prior to this inquiry, I fully subscribed to these thoughts. I believed in the thought-driven illusion that I was a separate, self-made (free will exerting) individual. I can now look at these thoughts for what they are: simply thoughts, which come and go, rise and fall — the content of which are uncontrolled. They seem like such flimsy things now! Formerly, there was a notion that I controlled my thoughts - that I generated them and guided their content. I see now that this is not the case.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels… boundless. There is no lack here. There is no suffering here. In seeing thoughts and concepts for what they are, there is peace. Every moment is perfect. As such, there is gratitude in deeply knowing the perfection of this moment. There is also no real seeking left. Prior to this dialogue, there was seeking - never ending seeking — all-consuming seeking — which took place in thoughts and concepts. There was fear of death. There was anxiety being energized by the seeming presence of a separate me. These have all dissolved.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?
It’s a bit difficult to pinpoint, but I would say a major turning point was when Vivien guided me on an inquiry into what the direct experience of my own ego is, along with my direct experience of “other” egos in the world. I inquired into this deeply and it was like a light switch turned on, revealing that all of these concepts are just a collection of thoughts. My ego is just a bunch of thoughts! And the neighbor’s ego? Same thing! I’d say the “dominoes fell” from there. Prior to this, I conceptually knew that “I am not my thoughts,” but I didn’t see it in experience and so it didn’t do anything for me. These dominoes falling let me trace thoughts to their source, to plainly see that they arise from nowhere, recede to nowhere, and that their content is and has always been utterly out of my control. Still though, the final straw was when you suggested that I might already be where I thought I still needed to get to. I never considered that. So I looked, and I saw clearly what has been here all along, only covered by clouds of thoughts. I was thinking too conceptually — too much — about it, and overshot it.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decision - There is an appearance of many decisions made throughout every day, but this is just an appearance. For example, after working on my computer for a while, I will “decide” to get up from my chair. So then there is a thought merged with action of the body, with thought claiming ownership of the decision. The apparent decision to get up would have unfolded the same way, no matter how much thoughts try to insert themselves.

Intention - Intention is just a thought about a potential illusory future, which may or may not occur. At any rate, it’s not right HERE. Just another flimsy thought.

Free will - There is no free will. Thoughts and actions are happening; genetics and conditioning drive much of the content of thought and action. For example, you and I aren’t speaking because I exerted free will again and again to get to here. Rather, one circumstance just led to the next, and the next… an effortless unfolding.

Choice - There is apparent choice, but none in actuality. For example, I open the fridge and see a red apple and a banana. I choose to eat the red apple. Thoughts would tell me that I carefully considered my options and I chose the apple for various reasons. In actuality, the end result would always be the same. Genetics/conditioning/experience have already made the choice for me.

Control - There is no control. I don’t control what thoughts appear, when, and for how long. What is happening right now in the present moment of experience is a direct result of what occurred in the prior moment (in relativity), like an unbroken chain, one link leading to the next.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I’m not sure how to answer this question. I live, like you, in relativity as a human, and I have certain familial and work responsibilities to maintain. Most of all, I feel that I am responsible for knowing my true nature - the wholeness of what is - and “being.”
6) Anything to add?
For the time being, no.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Finding Me

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:24 pm

Good morning Bryan, i tendered your answers to other guides to see if I had missed anything, and back came a question about responsibility. Your answer seems to contradict what you say about control and free will.
Let me rephrase the question. Although intentions might arise to behave as if we are being responsible, is actual responsibility another illusion? Don't let the phrasing of the question lead you to say what you don't feel. It may be that this is an area where we need more work...

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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besposito
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Re: Finding Me

Postby besposito » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:29 pm

Hi Vince! By referring to "relativity," I meant that these responsibilities are those of the false, separate "I." I can see how my answer was confusing. It's clear to me that these are just part of the illusion -- more thought patterns. So, I'll answer this question again, from direct experience. What responsibilities do I have? None. Responsibility would assume having intention/control, and an ability to make decisions and act with free will. I see none of that here.


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