Have I really seen throught the self or am I just fooling myself?

[nightskyblue]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is no separate entity called self/me/I/person who is ruling this game. Who is responsible for the thoughts that come up and actions and words being spoken. That everything actually happens just by itself.

What are you looking for at LU? I read couple of stories from the Gatless gatecrashers book and it became clear that there is no I in actuality. But then somehow there is sometimes this insecure feeling that maybe there should be something more to be seen through or a "deeper" seeing. Maybe I'm just looking for a confirmation from someone else that it is been seen through here and I'm not just fooling myself.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I'm hoping to have some clarity whether or not the separate self has been actually seen through here. There is lighness here and seems that the personal thoughts happen less and less and feels like maybe something is unfolding. But still I feel a little insecure sometimes that maybe there should be a more "deeper" inquiry or seeing through. I don't want fool mysef and think ok, all work is done when maybe there would be something else still to do. Would love to have some light shed on this from someone who's already "on the other side".

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? My experience in terms of practices, seeking and inquiry is that they don't lead anywhere :D I'm always "just here" no matter how much yoga or meditation or looking is being done. The seeking energy seem to have been drying out so much that there hasn't been desire to do any practice or anything anymore

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am here to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There is a need to accept some rules of the forum :

Come here once a day to give answers to the questions : if you cannot do it, let me know
Be honest when giving the answers : that is to be sure that the answer has been seen not read in books or heard in audios or videos
Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Let me know when ready

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Hello!

Thank you for the response :) I'm ready!

Regards,
Nightskyblue

[warissem]

Good evening

What are you expecting to change after having gone through the illusion ?

What is missing here now ?

Kind regards

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

What are you expecting to change after having gone through the illusion ?

Expectation here has been that everything would be the same as now, but just more alive and vibrant.

What is missing here now ?

I guess nothing is really missing. There'a an understanding that every moment is "perfect" in a way even when it doesn't feel like it, because nothing could be any other way than it is. Still, there is this silent and very gentle desire/wish that something would shift. Call it energetic shift or change in perception or whatever.. so that the fullness of life would be seen. It feels that it is impossible to enjoy life fully, when there is even a slightest sense of self present.

[warissem]

Good morning

I guess nothing is really missing. There'a an understanding that every moment is "perfect" in a way even when it doesn't feel like it, because nothing could be any other way than it is.

Good

Still, there is this silent and very gentle desire/wish that something would shift.

For whom ? LOOK.

Call it energetic shift or change in perception or whatever.. so that the fullness of life would be seen. It feels that it is impossible to enjoy life fully, when there is even a slightest sense of self present.

Can you pinpoint to this sense of self ? Would you describe it for me ?

Thank you

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

For whom ? LOOK.

Can't really find anyone, so for no one. It's just there felt in the body. Like the desire to drink water when the body is thirsty.

Can you pinpoint to this sense of self ? Would you describe it for me ?

It's a sense of being in the body. Like.. the skin is the boundary. Also there is still sometimes a self awereness present in some awkward social situations. A "socially sensitive center" experienced in the body. It seems to come and go though, not always so strong.

[warissem]

Hi

First, there is a need to clarify about LOOKING at direct experience. It is the master key used during this dialog.
Direct experience = seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). Concepts are used only to communicate. Now, based on direct experience :
what is this sense of self ?

What are you ?

Is there a self in any shape or form ?

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

First, there is a need to clarify about LOOKING at direct experience. It is the master key used during this dialog.
Direct experience = seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). Concepts are used only to communicate.

Ok :)

what is this sense of self ?

I don't really know what it is exactly. Maybe a sense of presence in the body would describe it the best. Sorry, english is not my first language, I'm a bit unsure of the choice of words here.. But in terms of direct experience.. I can't really see, hear, smell (lol) etc. the "sense of self", therefore i guess it isn't anything at all..

What are you ?

I don't know what I am to be honest. I don't know what is the "I" that is referred here.

Is there a self in any shape or form ?

No, there is no self in any shape or form.

[warissem]

Hi

Good observations. Here is an exercise for you :

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings?

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

No, can't find one.

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

Thought can't experience anything. It can only comment on what is experienced, but thought itself can't experience anything.

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Thoughts can comment on something related to other kind of sense experience. But in essence thought is completely separate from other sense experience.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

It doesn't have a continuity. It's kind of like a broken record. Going on and off in the head. But it is just a story, just isolated thoughts.

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Yes, thought is only known as it appears. There is no one in control of thought, they just happen automatically. Lot of conditioned thoughts, but I didn't install them there, they just happen.

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

Yes, this is obvious. If we were in charge of thought we would probably produce only pleasant thoughts or no thoughts at all. But that is not the case. Thoughts just happen.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

Unpleasant thoughts happen, but who or what decides what thought is unpleasant or not, I don't know. To this I answered actually in the previous answer.

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings?

This one was good! Yeah, it is just a broken chain of "me" thoughts. No "me" to be found in "me" thoughts, just thoughts, just words happening in the head and sometimes the word in the head is "me". But it is just that, a word.

[warissem]

Hi nel

Great observations. Now go for a walk in a park or in nature for 30 minutes or more, enjoy it and report about what is going on : what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and felt (sensations). At each step, ask "is there a me involved". Example : am I hearing ? OR hearing is happening ? Ask and Look for the answer.

Warissem

[nightskyblue]

Hi nel

Great observations. Now go for a walk in a park or in nature for 30 minutes or more, enjoy it and report about what is going on : what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and felt (sensations). At each step, ask "is there a me involved". Example : am I hearing ? OR hearing is happening ? Ask and Look for the answer.

Hi, I'm not nel, but will answer anyway..

Trees, snow, traffic.. is seen. Traffic noice, sound of walking and breathing is heard.. I don't even know what is this "me". Everything is just heard, seen, smelt.. there is some sort of center in the head, but that is also maybe just a sensation. I'm actually quite tired of hearing the word "me" everywhere in nonduality related talks etc. A lot of talk about a something called "me" that doesn't even exist.

[warissem]

Good evening

Trees, snow, traffic.. is seen. Traffic noice, sound of walking and breathing is heard.. I don't even know what is this "me". Everything is just heard, seen, smelt.. there is some sort of center in the head, but that is also maybe just a sensation.

yes, it cannot be other than sensation, look for yourself.

I'm actually quite tired of hearing the word "me" everywhere in nonduality related talks etc. A lot of talk about a something called "me" that doesn't even exist.

The word "me" will appear but what is this "I" which is tired of hearing it ?

Best wishes

Warissem

PS I apologyze adressing you as nel.

[nightskyblue]

Good evening!

The word "me" will appear but what is this "I" which is tired of hearing it ?

There's no "I" hearing it. Just hearing and feeling annoyed. You know, when you hear someone telling some same old story again and again and it starts to get quite boring and annoying..