awakening

[Agapanthus]

There no need to seek more thought! Thanks, Warissem!

[warissem]

Good evening

There is an investigation, I recommend :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

Hi Warissem--



"Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?"

None of that can be known. All of those qualities are inferences of some sort.

No boundaries...no inside and outside

The word "body" refers to an image...It doesn't seem like there is an experience "Of body"....there is feeling/sensation/experience, but the rest seems to be a kind of story...

Pretty remarkable, really!

Regards,

Matt

[warissem]

Hi Matt

What is different from the beginning of this dialog ?

Is seeking still going on and if so, what are you looking for?

Can you say with a big fat yes, that it is clear, a separate self is an illusion?

Kind regards

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

What is different is that the idea of trying to develop any further "model" is ridiculous...There is experience, and then there is talking/thinking about experience which actually seems to create the feeling of "being" a separate self. Before the thought and the attachment to thought, there is "no problem."

It doesn't feel like there is more seeking on this matter...there is still interest, but it feels like it would be "for fun" because it is clear that going deeper into though deepens the attachment and increases the sense that there will be a conflation with the model as "it."

It feels solid to say that the separate self is an illusion! There is still an appearance that is visible as a body and there is still operating according to the conditioned norms, but it is clear that there is nothing separate that is a producer of thought and there is nothing that stands "outside" and directs anything in terms of choice or "free will." There is a sense of relief that everything can still happen "as normal" but nothing needs to be done!

Cheers,

Matt

[warissem]

Good morning

Great. In this forum, the threads are closed after the final questions. I invite you to give answers to the questions and elaborate on each of them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kind regards

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Nope, just the illusion of one.

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of the separate self is thought only. Maybe the moment something is named/labelled it brings forth a sense of "other" which also implies self. The self is a thought-inference and no where in direct experience. What is different now? A sense that thought doesn't have the primacy that it once seemed to have.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels "relaxed." There is a feeling of being centered in experience as opposed to storyline. There have been a few circumstances that would have normally appeared as triggering that just didn't feel like they drew forth any negative response-feeling.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I think it was the part relating to the experience of the body vs how body is viewed as a story to be identified with (that is not exactly what was communicated, but the memory of what it lead to...)

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There is nothing to make a decision. Intention feels like it may be a thought that arises that feels like an inclination towards a particular behavior. Free will cannot be. Neither can choice or control. Behavior happens according to conditions...thoughts arise from I don't know where and sometimes they seem to point to a type of becoming. Maybe if anything, thoughts control behavior to some extent, but there is no "controller." Behavior happens all day long without conscious thought. there is hunger and a walking to the fridge. There is a feeling of having to urinate and a subsequent trip to bathroom. stimulus/response.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works. What is who responsible for? There are movements and responses according to conditions. They arise, unbidden. Responsibility does not seem to be a valid concept.

6) Anything to add? If anything, might be more of an inclination for things to subtract or fade away. Nothing to add!

[warissem]

Good morning

I will submit your answers to other guides for further questions.

Warissem