Stepping in

[Birdie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that there is no substance to the thought of "I"--"I" cannot be found. The sense of 'self' is a construct composed of conditioning. The conditioning is a scaffold for 'selfing'. The scaffold contains many types of education, culture, beliefs--constructs that people have been willing to fight and die for.

What are you looking for at LU?
To lose my sense of a separate self entirely. I think my understanding may be superficial. I don't feel a shift. I notice that doing exercises along with the Gateless Gatecrashers book has helped to go deeper, to keep noticing that there is no "I". It seems that if I just keep doing it and get some direction, then I will be able to sense a shift. I hear people say, "once you have seen it, you can't unsee it," and I do not think I am there. Though it does feel a littler looser.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Liberation from a sense of a separate self. Help with uncovering blind spots that prevent me from seeing. I have the expectation that I can move through the gate, given the right assistance. And I understand there will still be conditioning to unravel afterwards.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Osho meditations in the '70s and early '80s - many different practices, the moving meditations some vipassana. There were also therapy groups to help release conditioning. I was not successful with the inquiry they offered, I basically 'flunked' two enlightenment intensives. These involved spending the whole weekend answering the question, "tell me who you are." I did not have the experience that was touted, so I did another enlightenment intensive and did not get it in that one, either. This led me to believe that it just would not happen for me. Over the years I practiced dance techniques that enhance the experience of the present moment: dance meditation, trance dance, contact improvisation. About 6-7 years ago I did the Finders Course. Again, many different styles of meditation were presented with which to experiment, some I connected with and others I did not. I felt an increased sense of well-being that is still with me. I connected most with the "Headless Way" and "Unprovoked Happiness."

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[vinceschubert]

Hi Birdie, vince here. i will accompany you as you examine what is actual and what is conceptual.
From your intro you seem to have a pretty good grasp or what we point to.
Whether or not a 'shift' has occurred is not a matter of opinion, but to consider it is to enter storyland.
Among the many seekers that i have worked with on this forum, there have been some that i would describe as awake in every way but one. That is that they didn't believe that they are.
Consequently, they were responding to a different story, so, many of the new behaviors that would have been instilled by the brain rewiring eluded them.
What are the criteria that determine if a 'shift' has happened? (rhetorical question)
Well, most people would like to have had an epiphany-type experience. They see bells and whistles as proof that it has happened, but for many, it doesn't happen this way.
There was also a belief in seekers, that if we were to 'awaken', that these things would change instantly and completely.
The stories of perpetual bliss, may or may not be true. They are certainly not experienced here, nor in anybody that i have related to.
There was a time when even on reflection it was believed that the stories about ourselves were actual. That we were in control. That truth was a thing. That we were inherently good or bad.
If, on reflection, these things are recognized as a fallacy, if they are recognized to be illusions, then a 'shift' has happened.
At LU there is the need for this to be an experiential shift. Not just intellectual. What does that mean?
The intellectual recognitions are usually accompanied by an experiential component, but without doubt, it takes time to re-condition many years of habitual responding.
If there is a feeling component to the recognition of the illusions, then behavior changes. Responses to the illusions when they happen, become different.
Knowing that we don't have control over everything that happens means that we don't beat ourselves up over a perceived failure. We don't deny the consequences of it, but neither do we dwell on how it could/should have been. We move on quickly.
Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening?
This is not to say "fake it until you make it." You only have to ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"
If you honestly do, then be open to the behavioral changes, the consequences of Seeing. (what is actual and what is story)
You will find that from both yourself and those around you, a resistance to change. For this reason, i advise you to not advertise what you are going through. For a while at least, only talk about it with others that have trod this path.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Thank you so much, Vince! I'm excited!
I absolutely get that thinking there should be a big change gets in the way of seeing what is. Several years ago I made a conscious choice to step away from some friends who did not believe they were awake (so they do not believe I am, either), and to spend more time (online) with a community more focused on seeing awakeness. I do not see what many others see, only what I see. And, there is nothing wrong with what I see. Sometimes I have something to offer to a conversation, many times I do not. There is recognition, resonance with many nondual teachings. I enjoy being in the space of the teachings.

Yes, I understand that conditioning is an on-going process, and have some techniques to help with it. There is a big focus in our community on de-conditioning. Crap will continue to come up, and I will have my reactions, and hopefully, the ability to recognize the misunderstanding and release it will become more fluid. It has already become more fluid.

I did tell my hubby about this process, and he is flummoxed.

I do have a concern. When I signed up I was ready to go, and still am. However, an awareness challenge came up that I found very helpful last year, so I plan to do it again. Is that OK with you?
Much love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

I enjoy being in the space of the teachings.

I do too. That's why I guide. However there is a caveat here. It is an oxymoron to be both a seeker and to be awake.
Seeking ends, not because there are no more questions, but because there is no longer an imperative for answers.

I understand that conditioning is an on-going process, and have some techniques to help with it.

Would you outline these, please?

an awareness challenge came up that I found very helpful last year, so I plan to do it again. Is that OK with you?
Much love,

Tell me about it.

vince

[Birdie]

Good morning, Vince.

Seeking ends, not because there are no more questions, but because there is no longer an imperative for answers.

Yes. I agree. I sense that seeking is craving/or grasping for what is missing. It is focused on finding something "out there." One of the study groups I attend is for The Recognition Sutras by Christopher Wallis. Someone had posted a quote from it, and there was an immediate sense of recognition. Finding that a teaching resonates, or sparks recognition feels like an internal, settling in experience, rather than a reaching out, or grasping.

I understand that conditioning is an on-going process, and have some techniques to help with it.

Sorry, there was a typo, there. It should have read: de-conditioning is an on-going process. Some things I do when I'm stuck in a conditioned response: "I forgive myself for misunderstandng." "Stop it!" Some Byron Katie questions, or acknowledging helplessness (I cannot let go of this [feeling] because.....) followed by the opposite (if I could let go of this [feeling], I would feel....) that one acknowledges both sides of the duality. Sometimes just feeling sensation in the body provoked by the trigger, or simply recognizing that I'm triggered.

awareness challenge

This is a 21 day awareness challenge with Hareesh (Christopher Wallis). It involves a 20 minute awareness cultivation described as,

awareness cultivation time. You’re not trying to attain some particular altered state of consciousness or peaceful spiritual state, you’re simply cultivating awareness in accordance with the guidance that you receive and seeing what happens.

then a contemplation type practice. Last year I did the contemplations outdoors as much as possible and found a strong connection to wonder that I get by being in nature. I'm not drawn to that community so much, as it seems centered around a character. I do enjoy some of the teachings, and leave the ones that do not connect. If there is resonance: yes, if not, then it is not for me at this time (or at all). The only way to know is by considering it and seeing what comes up.

Love,
Leela

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.
I just read through the introductory materials for the upcoming awareness challenge, and they recommend doing just one thing at a time, much as they do in the Gateless Gatecrashers. It would probably be too much to do both. So, while I'm excited about doing this work, and will continue anyway, should I just wait a while, then get back in the cue?
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

So, while I'm excited about doing this work, and will continue anyway, should I just wait a while, then get back in the cue?

Yes, do the challenge but don't get back in the queue, just come back here. I'll wait.

Finding that a teaching resonates, or sparks recognition feels like an internal, settling in experience,

Yes, these certainly feel significant. i do however recall from my own seeking years, that none of these took me through a portal. They felt like I was close and I craved a repeat. Hmm, I sit here considering how they were different to the one that did propel me through a portal and I don't know. Hmm, more consideration on this...

de-conditioning is an on-going process

Yes, we will come back to this on your return.

found a strong connection to wonder that I get by being in nature.

Ah yes. Familiar here too.

Talk in 3 weeks...

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince. The immersion does not start until Jan 1, can we continue, or is it better to wait?
Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Certainly continue.
So tell me, what do you expect to be different when you accept that you're awake?

with love

vince

[Birdie]

So tell me, what do you expect to be different when you accept that you're awake?

Expectations. Hard question. And a good one. Less triggering? I think I do have less triggering than, say 5 years ago. That could be a function of aging, caring less about some things. It could be that something is working. I was so upset during the 2016 election at the way the female candidate was treated. The treatment of women has not changed, and I am not seeing it as much. If I had to live through that time again, would it be different? Don't know.

I observe that I'm interpreting my answers. Perhaps that needs to stop.

What would be different? When I look, nothing there. (Those slippery little expectations are hiding.) This is like asking myself: 'I wonder what my next thought will be?' and waiting, and waiting. Then a distraction comes.

I will be less of a trigger for others? Or, I will just see someone else being triggered by me as their problem, and assume less responsibility for (and be less triggered by) their reactions. This would bring me greater peace.

Perhaps look at this from the perspective of what will NOT change:
I won't be smarter, or appear smarter.
I won't be better looking.
I probably won't have better social skills (so I hear from others).
I can't think of any kind of skill I might gain.
I won't turn into a billionaire.

I think I will give less credence to my thoughts/judgements, so less judgmental. (That can effect how others feel w/me.)
I will observe more space, such as the space noted above when asking the question and waiting. I wonder how observing more space will change what I perceive?

I used to be a lot more productive than I am now. There is a thought that I need to get my drive back. I don't think being awake will make me find my drive and be more productive. However, there may be less resistance to things I do not care to do. Perhaps more ease. Ease, one of my favorite words.

Losing the sense of a separate self. I believe I would live differently, see things differently. I do try to take a long view of things (if something sucks right now, it's not forever, everything changes, things or perspectives change very quickly). I think this has made me resilient to depression, which seems to affect a lot of people. (I live in an intentional community, and we were very surprised to see how many community members are or have been on antidepressants. My hubby and I tend to regard sadness and grief as part of being human that everyone goes through, and there has not been a tendency to fall in a hole with those feelings. We tend to be creative and make art from feelings, as well.) Hmmmm... that makes me wonder... if someone has had a tendency towards depression, perhaps awakening feels very different for them, there is a much bigger a contrast between before and after.

I suppose other expectations may surface. So, keep noticing.

Thank you so much, Vince!
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

I think I do have less triggering than, say 5 years ago. That could be a function of aging,

Aging itself can't change this, but learning through experience can.
When you are triggered, do you recognize that you are responding to a story? ..a belief?

I observe that I'm interpreting my answers. Perhaps that needs to stop.

Don't stop please.

I will be less of a trigger for others?

Ah, this is a big one. Others get triggered by their own beliefs. There is a great saying; "Your opinion of me is none of my business." I love it.

Or, I will just see someone else being triggered by me as their problem, and assume less responsibility for (and be less triggered by) their reactions.

Hmm. In spite of what I just said, this is not adaptive behavior either. You are not responsible, but there are consequences to consider.

Perhaps look at this from the perspective of what will NOT change:
I won't be smarter, or appear smarter.
I won't be better looking.
I probably won't have better social skills (so I hear from others).
I can't think of any kind of skill I might gain.
I won't turn into a billionaire.

Likely all accurate.

I think I will give less credence to my thoughts/judgements, so less judgmental.

Yes yes. Thoughts are a conditioned reflex. They don't (usually) reflect what is actual, but rather what is believed.

I will observe more space, such as the space noted above when asking the question and waiting. I wonder how observing more space will change what I perceive?

Yes, I call this a wider perspective. (it's a prerequisite for wisdom)

My hubby and I tend to regard sadness and grief as part of being human that everyone goes through, and there has not been a tendency to fall in a hole with those feelings.

A dear friend passed away just 2 months after waking up happened here, and I discovered that I could have sadness without grief.

if someone has had a tendency towards depression, perhaps awakening feels very different for them, there is a much bigger a contrast between before and after.

I don't know the answer to this, but I do know that every body that I have accompanied to wakefulness has had a unique experience of it.

I suppose other expectations may surface.

Of course. ..and yes, keep looking.
The big thing I want for you with this post, it to notice how your mind creates stories, and how some of them provoke other stories. Then I want you to consider how some stories have become embedded and now they are triggers without being present in their original form.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

When you are triggered, do you recognize that you are responding to a story? ..a belief?

Sometimes yes, sometimes probably not. If I am hungry, didn't sleep well, excessively tired: those are time when I'm most likely to believe a story. Sometimes thoughts happen, emotions react to thoughts, more supporting thoughts which cause more emotions--then after a little stewing, I might notice it was all a story. There might be immediate recognition once in a while.

The big thing I want for you with this post, it to notice how your mind creates stories, and how some of them provoke other stories. Then I want you to consider how some stories have become embedded and now they are triggers without being present in their original form.

Yes. Stories create emotional reactions, which create more stories of causation (his careless comment caused my hurt), stories of intentionality (he did it on purpose), interpretation (which means he is an ass).... so on and so on. The base trigger is always some version of: I'm not good enough (not good-hearted enough, not intelligent enough, not sensitive enough, not beautiful enough, not competent enough, not generous enough....). Probably all boils down to 'not good enough.' Lacking in some way. One Nonviolent Communication trainer described a primary trigger as a broken toe that keeps getting stepped on or bumped by various perceived insults.
I live in an intentional community which provides many opportunities to get broken toes stepped on. This afternoon we have a work party. I will watch to see what, if anything, comes up.
Thank you so much, Vince.
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Leela,

those are time when I'm most likely to believe a story.

What happens when you don't believe your thoughts?
Write a sentence of two on TRUTH.

There might be immediate recognition once in a while.

More on this later, but for reasons that will become clear, it doesn't matter how long after it (recognition) happens.

The base trigger is always some version of: I'm not good enough (not good-hearted enough, not intelligent enough, not sensitive enough, not beautiful enough, not competent enough, not generous enough....). Probably all boils down to 'not good enough.' Lacking in some way.

Can you recognize that these are all stories of a self? (These and many others)

One Nonviolent Communication trainer described a primary trigger as a broken toe that keeps getting stepped on or bumped by various perceived insults.

How do you think that the "broken toe" came into existence?

I will watch to see what, if anything, comes up.

Excellent. Daily life-ing provides constant learning opportunities.

with much love

vince

[Birdie]

What happens when you don't believe your thoughts?
Write a sentence of two on TRUTH.

When I don't believe my thoughts nothing happens. I do not have an emotional reaction, so the thought is seen as irrelevant, meaningless. I suspect most, if not all of my thoughts are not truth. Thoughts can attempt to approximate the truth, and that is why some teachings resonate, or provoke a sense of recognition. I don't think that truth can be expressed in words. I could be wrong. Words are mind-stuff. I can experience a stunning sunset, but if I start talking about it, I'm no longer in the juiciness of the experience, I'm talking about it.

Can you recognize that these are all stories of a self? (These and many others)

Yes. Stories solidify a sense of self.

How do you think that the "broken toe" came into existence?

It is typically the parent's job, especially the mother to teach the child to behave in polite society. Also, she has her own motives for socializing the child a particular way. In my case, as the oldest, I was always told "act your age," which meant to act like an adult, when I was a child. She had other kids to deal with, I should act like an adult already. She was also very critical, so I could never do anything well enough. "You never finish anything," was a common criticism. Then school is set up to promote competition, so comparison starts, other students, comparison between peers.

Work party: felt a little fear at lunch when I observed there was not a place to sit. Then noticed I could sit next to a friend, and my hubby could sit further away. All was well at lunch. Talked with someone about cleaning the shop for the work project, and he was happy about that. I worked alone for a while, then he helped. It was an ok experience. No emotional buttons pushed. I did whack my left temple on a metal bar while vacuuming, and it is a little swollen and tender. A little sad that I did that. As a young child, I got hit in the head with a brick on that side. There is a thought about repeating that injury, but not as bad.
love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Leela,

Can you recognize that these are all stories of a self? (These and many others)

Yes. Stories solidify a sense of self.

Can you see that they originally created the idea of a self? ..and how about this one; our languages have evolved from this base, so they also reinforce (solidify) the idea of a self. That is every day conditioning.
Notice that I have been talking about the idea of a self. Is the sense of a self different? (rhetorical question) Yes, it is where we feel.. emotionally something that we label self.
All of this results in our brain being wired in a particular (but unique) way.
Here’s a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seem to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

On truth... Do you think that it's a thing? That it is inherently objective?
..or do you think that the most we can say is that a story ABOUT something is true (accurate)?

with love

vince