Almost there

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

No efforts are required to see whatever is in front if eyes are open and the same with hearing and thoughts.

Good.

But if I have to see a particular thing or hear a particular sound, or think about a particular topic, it does need efforts, intention and direction of attention towards that. And that means an “I” (or someone) has to make that effort.

Is what you said from direct experience ? I recommend to you to do the exercise of looking at what you said :

Let's say : you listen to the news. Sure, attention is directed to the news but is there a you, or someone needed to direct the attention ? Is there someone needed to make the body walk one pace after the other ? There is no need for deduction like "it means so and so". During our dialog you sign for Looking at direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). All other stuff is thought story.

No, it is not the same kind of looking for finding “I”. I is the one which is trying to find the tiger under my bed and not finding it.

Before looking for a tiger, look first at this "I" : does it exist ? If you say yes, describe it for me.

It takes effort and intention to try to find a tiger under the bed. "I" exists prior to having that direct experience of not finding the tiger.

Are you speaking through direct experience ? How do you know that "I" exists prior to experience ? Does any word exist before the experience of it ?

Yes, I see the difference. Perhaps labeling it as “I” is a matter of habit and thereby making it personal. Changing this habit to label it as awareness will take intention, effort, and time.

It is not a labeling game here. You have to see it for yourself. Awareness = being aware, knowing principle.


What is coming up when you read this : there is no you, in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be


Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Is what you said from direct experience ? I recommend to you to do the exercise of looking at what you said :

Let's say : you listen to the news. Sure, attention is directed to the news but is there a you, or someone needed to direct the attention ? Is there someone needed to make the body walk one pace after the other ? There is no need for deduction like "it means so and so".

As I said, "I" is not seen by direct experience. But its sense is undeniable. Whenever I ask the question, am I here? I can never say I am not. And it is not a deduction or inference.

Before looking for a tiger, look first at this "I" : does it exist ? If you say yes, describe it for me.

No, I can’t find “I” the same way as a tiger.

Are you speaking through direct experience ? How do you know that "I" exists prior to experience ? Does any word exist before the experience of it ?

It is difficult, perhaps impossible to describe how do I know my existence. It is definitely not by those direct experiences of seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting and thoughts. It is its own experience.

It is not a labeling game here. You have to see it for yourself. Awareness = being aware, knowing principle.

Agree.

What is coming up when you read this : there is no you, in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be

At some level, I have a sense that it is true. But the sense of “I” does not go away by reading it. It is like a circular maze. Who can know/see that there is no “I”.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Good morning

At some level, I have a sense that it is true. But the sense of “I” does not go away by reading it. It is like a circular maze.

Now, look at the sense of "I" : is it a thought ? is it a sensation in the body ? Anyway, this sense of "I" is known. It is "a circular maze", for whom ? Look deeply and make the difference between thoughts conclusion and direct experience.

Who can know/see that there is no “I”.

This is the core question. My answer is : who wants to know ? Look, see it for yourself.

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Now, look at the sense of "I" : is it a thought ? is it a sensation in the body ? Anyway, this sense of "I" is known. It is "a circular maze", for whom ? Look deeply and make the difference between thoughts conclusion and direct experience.

It is defintely not a sensation in the body. About thought I am not so sure. Perhaps it is a thought but not a separate thought by itself. It is at the core of every thought. And as thoughts are always here, it feels like the sense of “I” is always here. I realise that this is also a thought conclusion. As a direct experience "I" is not found.

This is the core question. My answer is : who wants to know ? Look, see it for yourself.

The question, "Who can know” also appears as a thought just like any other thought. If a answer appears that will also be a thought. Right now no answer is appearing.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Awareness, being knowing, presence, consciousness or whatever name it is called, IS. Are you seeing from this perspective ?

Are you still seeking ? If so, what are you missing ?

Elaborate your answers.

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warriesem,

Awareness, being knowing, presence, consciousness or whatever name it is called, IS. Are you seeing from this perspective ?

At certain times, I see from this perspective but then I get back to the usual chains of thought perspective. It is helpful to differentiate between direct experience and chain of thoughts. But it is not natural yet. It takes effort to see from this perspective and that makes me doubt sometimes if I am just deluding myself. And yes I know that this is a chain of thoughts, but that knowing doesn’t help except for a moment.

Are you still seeking ? If so, what are you missing ?

I find it difficult to answer this question as I am not really missing anything. I am quite happy and content but can I say I am complete and finished? Not really. I don’t know what will make me say that I am finished. I am not sure of what the final destination is if any.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

At certain times, I see from this perspective but then I get back to the usual chains of thought perspective.

This flip flop is normal. A conditioning of a whole life is still operating.

It is helpful to differentiate between direct experience and chain of thoughts. But it is not natural yet. It takes effort to see from this perspective and that makes me doubt sometimes if I am just deluding myself. And yes I know that this is a chain of thoughts, but that knowing doesn’t help except for a moment.

What are you expecting to happen ?

I find it difficult to answer this question as I am not really missing anything. I am quite happy and content but can I say I am complete and finished? Not really. I don’t know what will make me say that I am finished. I am not sure of what the final destination is if any.

Awareness is awaring right now. What is this "I" which is not finished or which is expecting a final destination ? Do you see the subtlety of thoughts ?

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

What are you expecting to happen ?

Actually, I am not sure what is possible so I do not know what to expect. I am not expecting anything in particular. I am looking forward to the unexpected.

Awareness is awaring right now. What is this "I" which is not finished or which is expecting a final destination ? Do you see the subtlety of thoughts ?

Yes, I see that these are all thoughts. The subtlety of thoughts is more underlined when I doubt even the awareness as if that is also thought because that is also noticed.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Yes, I see that these are all thoughts. The subtlety of thoughts is more underlined when I doubt even the awareness as if that is also thought because that is also noticed.

Awareness is a concept used to point to Being aware, Knowing, consciousness. You know that, don't you ?

It is time to go through a meditation about the body. Sit down or lay down comfortably, close your eyes and focus on what is called a body during 10 to 20 minutes, then give answers to the questions below :

Is there a body outside of thoughts ?

Does a body have height, size, weight ?

Does it have a substance ?

Is there an inside and an outside of the body ?

Thanks

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Awareness is a concept used to point to Being aware, Knowing, consciousness. You know that, don't you ?

Yes, the word Awareness is a concept like any other word and I know what it points to.

It is time to go through a meditation about the body. Sit down or lay down comfortably, close your eyes and focus on what is called a body during 10 to 20 minutes, then give answers to the questions below :

What I find difficult in this exercise is that I have to consciously think of what each question is and what could be the answer and that’s where thought takes over. And eventually, when I type this, I can answer only from the memory. Anyway, I guess that is the best I can do, so here are the answers:

Is there a body outside of thoughts ?

There are sensations and they are outside of thoughts until I label them. To label these sensations as body, I will have to use thoughts and in that sense, body is inside the thoughts - as content of thoughts.

Does a body have height, size, weight ?

Once the concept of body is built in the thoughts, the concepts of height, size, and weight can also be built. Sensations by themselves don’t have these attributes of height size and weight.

Does it have a substance ?

The same answer as above

Is there an inside and an outside of the body ?

[PankajDixit]

Sorry, the previous post has gone, unfinished.

The answer to the last question:

Is there an inside and an outside of the body ?

Once ‘body’ is accepted as a concept, there can also be inside and outside of it and those will be more concepts.

Regards.

Pankaj.

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

You are doing too much about it. Thoughts and concepts are helpful to communicate but life is living itself without a need of a concept. Now, when you do the exercise, LOOK if there is really an inside and an outside. I recommend this video for you :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl4Ajb7 ... Z0TEp60DeQ


Come back with what is going on.

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warrisem

Yes, even I was feeling when I was writing the answers to the last post that it was an intellectual exercise.

Thanks for recommending the video. I went through all the 7 parts and it was very helpful. The exercise of imagining of melon in my hands was very helpful to realize that my body is a similar imagination. Even though stopping this imagination at will doesn't look possible, it is not a problem as long it is seen as an imagination.

When I am watching and listening to the videos I feel like I am getting and experiencing whatever is being said but once I get back to my daily routine, it is not so easy to be at the same experience level. Perhaps I will have to listen to it a few more times.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Go outside for a walk and report here what is going on : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensations. Open your five senses. At each moment, ask yourself : is an I needed to see or to hear, etc, ...

Kind regards

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

When walking in the park or doing other daily activities I can notice various perceptions like sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste and they don't require any "I". Similarly thinking or what I feel like a voice in my head is also going on and that also doesn't require any "I" .
These two broad categories of activities namely perception and thinking go on automatically and don't need an "I".

However, there is a third category, which is noticing or paying attention. This requires an "I". I need to pay attention to my perception or to my thinking. Without my intention and attention, the perception and thinking may still be working on their own for example there are a large number of objects in my view and there are various sensations present in my body at any time and I will remain unaware of them unless I focus my attention to a particular object or sensation or even to the mere act of perception or thinking.

And it looks very personal. It is my attention and I seem to have some control over moving it to where I want.

Regards.
Pankaj.