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[vinceschubert]

Good morning Jim, loved the detail in your reply.
OK, so when a thought that is described as an intention arises, where does it come from? What are the conditions that produced that flavor of thought, rather then say a thought that would be described as a decision?

it's my intention to get up at 8am.

If this intention thought was accompanied by another thought that said "Maybe 8:30" then the label choice could be used. ..and of course, when 8am had the highest intention rating, then the label decision applies.
Are you 'getting' what my intention is here? What do you think that is?
Now, let's look at free will. What does this imply? (rhetorical question) It implies that we have an ability to determine our intentions and decisions. Not only the arising of them but the execution of them.
So, a slightly trickier question than my first one... Not only what determines the arising of those particular thoughts, but what determines which of them get acted on?
Now, to answer this, please don't fall into theory, but rather consult your memory of experience. You can even consider the process that is happening to answer these questions.
One more thing to consider (but not necessary to answer just yet) is, when the final action has happened, when the decisions and choices are acted on, could it have happened any other way?

with love

vince

[Kalama2305]

What are the conditions that produced that flavor of thought

Necessity largely. Or an internal question.

What do you think that is?

Difficult to say. You might be clarifying or correcting what you read as my understanding but, within a reasonable measure, we appear to be saying the same thing. If you disagree you could just highlight where we're not in line.

what determines which of them get acted on?

They lead to desired outcomes ("If I wait until 08:10 I might miss the train, If I go at 08:05 I won't"). You might wonder what "desired" means...? Desired by me in light of goals from, say, not wanting to be late, flustered, let down my friend etc etc

You can even consider the process that is happening to answer these questions.

So in the case of this constructing this exchange, my intention is have some insight into self and its operations. That is my intention. The action follows from this intention.

it have happened any other way?

For sure. I am a conglomerate of sometimes conflicting/sometimes co-operating elements. All the bits are not always on the same page.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Jim, Ok, it will take us a few posts to synchronise our communications.
for a start, I need you to quote and answer every question (?)

What are the conditions that produced that flavor of thought

Necessity largely. Or an internal question.

Hmm, I could have phrased that question better. I was after the specific conditions. Not the feeling behind them. ..or to put it another way, what makes an intention thought different to a decision thought? Be specific.
Do you 'get it' that words like necessity actually point to a whole story, but without context are pretty meaningless.

Are you 'getting' what my intention is here? What do you think that is?

Difficult to say. You might be clarifying or correcting what you read as my understanding

That would be a "no". was trying to point out that we have thoughts and that depending on their characteristics, we apply certain labels to them. ..but they are all thoughts.
..and these thoughts create the world. They are what we react to. Everything that we do is a response to the thoughts that arise. Now I ask again, where do they come from?

what determines which of them get acted on?

They lead to desired outcomes ("If I wait until 08:10 I might miss the train, If I go at 08:05 I won't"). You might wonder what "desired" means...? Desired by me in light of goals from, say, not wanting to be late, flustered, let down my friend etc etc

So would it be accurate to say that it's more thought stories that determine which decision is made, which choice is acted on?

could it have happened any other way?

For sure. I am a conglomerate of sometimes conflicting/sometimes co-operating elements. All the bits are not always on the same page.

I'm not clear if your answer is a yes or no, so let me ask it in a different way. The circumstances that produced the outcome were what they were. Something would have needed to be different for a different outcome. ..but given what they were, how could it be different?

vince

[Kalama2305]

Vince,

what makes an intention thought different to a decision thought?

Well they're both thoughts. They differ only in what they express: one an intent and the other a decision. So they are both the same and different in the way that they would be if written down. The same syntactically (they can both be written as a sentence) but different semantically (they convey 2 different states of mind or meanings).

Do you 'get it' that words like necessity actually point to a whole story, but without context are pretty meaningless.

Do you mean by "get it" that I agree with you? Yes. I was trying to keep it brief. here's the "context" though: in this example I was thinking about necessity as, hunger. As in "I'm hungry. Shall I have a sandwich or a 3-course lunch?". That's a case of necessity leading to a decision. I guess it gives it a sort of "flavour" (no pun intended). I was just trying to be succinct, but clearly, there could be several layers here: what's in the fridge, whether I'm trying to lose weight etc etc

Now I ask again, where do they come from?

They arise spontaneously or appear to rise occasionally in response to other thoughts or emotions which may be more or less conscious. If you mean "where do they come from?" more literally, I'd assume my brain. I'm aware there's folks who would take issue with that last statement 🧐

So would it be accurate to say that it's more thought stories that determine which decision is made, which choice is acted on?

Yes.

I'm not clear if your answer is a yes or no, so let me ask it in a different way. The circumstances that produced the outcome were what they were. Something would have needed to be different for a different outcome. ..but given what they were, how could it be different?

I was agreeing with you. But to answer your follow up... the same circumstances do not always lead to the same consequences IMHO. The decisions I make about things are more likely to differ the further away in time the decision was made. I might make the same decision on a set of circumstances now and 5 minutes from now but probably not 5 years from now. Even if circumstances appear the same (it's a cold day and I feel tired) I might go out on my bike or I might sit on the couch. I think the difference can be explained if it's not obvious... BTW this is a real-life example that comes to me most days.

J

[vinceschubert]

Good evening J,

one an intent and the other a decision.

Hmm, I'm looking to steer you away from concepts, and intent and decision are that. They are concepts. Do you 'get' that?
They are vague flavours. There are specific characteristics about an intent and a decision. What are they?

as, hunger. As in "I'm hungry.

Again, hunger is a concept. If you talk about sensations that the concept points to, we will be closer, but it's the thoughts that accompany the sensations. If we think sandwich, we don't salivate. If we think bread and a favourite filling then we do. When we imagine eating this, we first imagine producing it.
This depends on circumstances. Are we home and intending to construct it? Do we have the ingredients? Will we accompany or follow it with a drink? Will that be coffee or juice? What is available? Do we have time to be casual or do we need to hurry?
There is a whole gamut of thought stories that are covered by the concept of hunger, eat.

where do they come from?

They arise spontaneously or appear to rise occasionally in response to other thoughts or emotions which may be more or less conscious.

Yes, this is what I was after. Good seeing.
Yes, sometimes we can see trigger and other times we are not aware of them.
If we go deeper, and say that we did see a trigger, say like we see someone eating and suddenly realise that we are hungry, can you see that that there are a whole lot of conditions that are outside of your influence that are also necessary for any happening to occur?

The decisions I make about things

Have you had the experience of making a decision only to find that what actually happens is quite different to the original intent?

vince

[Kalama2305]

V,

They are concepts. Do you 'get' that?

I do understand that. You purposely (and sensibly) decided not to read the previous exchanges one of which included a note from me that I'd generally not bother with quote marks around things to indicate that communicate that I 'get' that they are concepts and can be deconstructed. If I do put something in quotes (apart from repeating someone else's words 😉) it will mean that I'm using shorthand for a slippery concept which I could expand on if pressed.At least ... that's my intention.

There are specific characteristics about an intent and a decision. What are they?

If I had tried to capture the flavour of these 2 words it would be that intent suggests a push or urge for something desired. Examples could be from the banal "I'm finally going to make that curry tonight" to "I'm going to work at being a kinder person". I might form an intent and then roll it around to see whether it's what I really want now, later or some other time. It has an aspirational flavour.
"Decision" is less of an aspiration or questioning flavour ... it's just a to-do list that follows on from the intent. It can be reviewed of course. Hell, it might not even be acted on 😜 - all depends on one's level of integration IMHO.
I wouldn't hold too fast to these flavour attributions ... it might just be me.

There is a whole gamut of thought stories that are covered by the concept of hunger, eat.

When we look at it in detail ... this is true.

can you see that that there are a whole lot of conditions that are outside of your influence that are also necessary for any happening to occur?

Yes.

Have you had the experience of making a decision only to find that what actually happens is quite different to the original intent?

Yes. Might be worth a practical example. I like riding my bike a lot. I know I'll feel better also if I go out. I might decide: "yes, 2pm is when I'll go" But if it's cold/I'm fretful of other things not done etc I might simply avoid getting in the saddle (and here's the critical thing) consciously or unconsciously postpone the action.
I'd imagine this is a universal experience.

J

[vinceschubert]

I do put something in quotes (apart from repeating someone else's words 😉) it will mean that I'm using shorthand for a slippery concept which I could expand on if pressed.At least ... that's my intention.

Yes, same here. i put the single quotes around that slippery concept to indicate that I know that you know that it isn't meant literally.

If I had tried to capture the flavour of these 2 words it would be that intent suggests a push or urge for something desired.

Hmm, perhaps I'm flogging a dead horse here. It's not the flavour or examples that I want you to see, but the specifics.
They being that every thought gives birth to more thoughts. They also birth a physical or emotional response which delivers more thoughts, and so on and so on.

When we look at it in detail ... this is true.

Yes, this is what we need to do.
i want to lead you to the realization that it's all story and response and more story and more response, and that the stories are all fiction. They are made up. Our response to the stories is actual. The existence of the stories is actual, but the content of the stories is an interpretation shaped by our experience and our DNA.
Answer me this; If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there, does it make a sound?

vince

[Locutus1452]

If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there, does it make a sound?

Well I was not expecting that old chestnut!

My answer is: how would I know?

I don’t mean that in the colloquial sense, as in “why are you asking me?” I mean it literally, no one could know because… no one is there. I guess it’s the same problem with statements like “are you aware of your unconscious hostility?”: The question contains an assumption which dictates the answer.

Without getting all Donald Hoffman about it (Google?) … I do think that the tree falling will produce vibrations in the air detectable by an instrument which might be a human ear or just a microphone and a recorder. But I suspect that’s not what you are getting at 🤓…

[Kalama2305]

But I suspect that’s not what you are getting at

This comment means that my understanding of the LU approach is that it's based on 'deep seeing' rather than needing to take this or that phenomenological position...

[vinceschubert]

Hey Jim, that wasn't my post. Somebody else jumped in.
Can you go back to my post and respond please?

vince

[vinceschubert]

Ok, belay that. With some investigation, i see that it was you (Jim) and that you have 2 log in names. So I will respond to both posts. This evening...

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening J,

My answer is: how would I know?

I don’t mean that in the colloquial sense, as in “why are you asking me?” I mean it literally, no one could know because… no one is there. I guess it’s the same problem with statements like “are you aware of your unconscious hostility?”: The question contains an assumption which dictates the answer.

Without getting all Donald Hoffman about it (Google?) … I do think that the tree falling will produce vibrations in the air detectable by an instrument which might be a human ear or just a microphone and a recorder. But I suspect that’s not what you are getting at 🤓…

Good answer, and yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. ..but do you see the ramifications of it?
The instrument that converts those vibrations into what is perceived as sound is your brain. Just as all of the sense input is interpreted by your brain. As wonderful as this is, what is even more wonder full is that this means that the whole world, everything and everybody is an interpretation by your brain.
It takes nerve signals and builds a world and populates it according to how it has learned (and according to it's biology)
Everybody's perception is unique. Everybody's interpretation is unique.
The perception, the interpretation is for the most part learned. Conditioned. ..and this conditioning is expressed in stories. The stories that we respond to with emotions and behavior. They are thoughts. Some we are aware of and many that are beneath our consciousness. Ones that we respond to automatically, habitually.
What are the ramifications of realizing that you create your own world?
Why did you come to LU?

with love

vince

[Locutus1452]

but do you see the ramifications of it?

I see consequences. But, by your own logic ("Everybody's perception is unique. Everybody's interpretation is unique.") we may or may not agree on what these might be.

The fact - and I do view it as a fact - that we don't see the world 'as it is' is not at all new to me. It has long legs in philosophy starting perhaps with Plato and his cave but more recently with Kant. I mention this only because you don't know me any more than I know you and I could imagine that to some people new perhaps to LU this might come as a revelation.

The perception, the interpretation is for the most part learned. Conditioned. ..and this conditioning is expressed in stories. The stories that we respond to with emotions and behavior. They are thoughts. Some we are aware of and many that are beneath our consciousness. Ones that we respond to automatically, habitually.

I think that this is so. It seems to me that this works - grossly simplifying - on 2 levels.
One (psychologically) as in "whenever I hear a door being slammed I feel fear because that usually preceded a beating when I was 7 but now I realise it's just the wind".
Two (bodily) as in "millennia of evolutionary changes have shaped human perception and actions to fitness/survival rather than accuracy to such an extent that seeing things any other way is like expecting my eyes to suddenly see in ultraviolet".

Heading up North soon on a train so will say more about:

What are the ramifications of realizing that you create your own world?
Why did you come to LU?

Later....
What a tease😜

J

PS sorry about the names confusion. I shall try and sort out later

[Locutus1452]

Hi Vince

I can't see an obvious way to delete the "Kalama2305" account so I shall just try and make sure I login as Locutus each time. Again, my apologies for the confusion.

What are the ramifications of realizing that you create your own world?

Before I answer more directly.... That is well put. I don't - I believe - create the "world", just my own "interpretation" of it. In the words of Anil Seth, it's a "controlled delusion". However, it's a more-or-less shared world. And, whilst with some effort psychological/cognitive biases (like the slamming door example or, say, confirmation bias etc) can be overcome by reflection, reasoning, therapy etc the more fundamental 'creativity' engaged in by the brain

[Locutus1452]

(bloody train wifi... I was cutoff🤣)

is something I'm profoundly doubtful can be - what's the word? - seen thru or overcome.

So,

What are the ramifications of realizing that you create your own world

- well, it depends in which sense you mean it: the psychological sense or the more literal sense. Perhaps you see no difference?

More later....

J