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[vinceschubert]

so just do it Rose!

Rose can't "do it".
It can't be done.
So what can you DO if Doing it wont Do it ?

[GotIt]

So what can you DO if Doing it wont Do it ?

I think you're going to say: There's no "Rose" to do it, and there's nothing to do!

So, let go, and let it happen, relax and let it happen, although there's nothing to happen, relax into the reality of now with no "you" running the ship or something.

I don't know what I can DO! I wish I knew, except that there's nothing I can do or something like that.

Okay, I'm going to try to live today from: There's no "Rose" to do it, and there's nothing to do!

[vinceschubert]

Rose, there is/was only ever the sensation of a hat being on your head.

[GotIt]

Rose, there is/was only ever the sensation of a hat being on your head.

Okay.

[vinceschubert]

Okay.

This means that the only thing between you and 'got it' is thoughts of doubt.
Can thoughts be trusted ?

[GotIt]

This means that the only thing between you and 'got it' is thoughts of doubt.
Can thoughts be trusted ?

Thoughts are just ideas that appear in your head or popup from wherever they pop up. Thoughts don't have any basis to be real, thus trusted. Thoughts are just there. They aren't scientifically validated ideas. They are just ideas that appear, as if out of no where, with nothing to back them up. They aren't something you would trust, and to answer your question, no, they can't be trusted.


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[vinceschubert]

no, they can't be trusted.

So what do we do with doubt thoughts ?

[GotIt]

Rose, there is/was only ever the sensation of a hat being on your head.

This feels like: "if you say so", like "okay, if you say so, I guess it is (although I've never seen it/felt it/felt the sensation of no hat being there, or felt the gate crashing stuff, etc.)

This means that the only thing between you and 'got it' is thoughts of doubt.

I guess so, it feels like there's more to it, or like you're saying this is the only thing between me and "got it", but I'm not sure, or "okay", if you say it's this way.

Can thoughts be trusted ?

Thoughts can't be trusted.

So what do we do with doubt thoughts ?

The logical answer is we don't trust them.

It seems like I know things intellectually, but don't seem to see them experientially or something.

[vinceschubert]

or "okay", if you say it's this way.

Don't believe what i say. Test it out for yourself.

I've never seen it/felt it/felt the sensation of no hat being there,

How could you ever feel the sensation of NO hat being there. When the hat was there, you felt the sensation of it being there. After it was removed the sensation is still that it is there. That is what you feel now. A residual feeling, one left over after taking it off.
You accept that you can't trust your thoughts, or the physical manifestation of thoughts, emotion. That sensations can be misleading, but still you are looking for an experience to believe that you have 'gated'
Rose, tell me some of the way your life-ing has changed since starting this process ?

[GotIt]

Don't believe what i say. Test it out for yourself.

So there only ever was the sensation of a "me" living my life, running my life (living it and running it are two different things, which causes me to think, running it is actively doing something to oversee it and make it happen, and living it, is life happening as it happens, like life just doing what it does, and I'm a part of it, life just happening without a "me" running it). To myself: what would life be like without a "me" running it, and what would it be like with life just living, just happening? How would it feel to have life just living, to just be there while life is happening, with no "me" in it, or no "me" there? Try living from the direct experience of life happening (oh, you're already doing it now, it's already happening now, you just don't see it, so try to live from direct experience).

How could you ever feel the sensation of NO hat being there.

I think about the feeling of the sensation of having a hat on, and then the feeling of the sensation when it's not there. You can't feel the sensation of no hat being there, you can only feel the sensation of where the hat was, but you're saying there was no hat. You can't feel the sensation of no hat being there, as the feeling of the non-existent hat on your head is just a thought about what it feels like to have a hat on and then take it off or something.

Rose, tell me some of the way your life-ing has changed since starting this process ?

What do you mean by life-ing?

My first reaction is that nothing has changed. I'm still living my life the way I lived it before I started this process. I'll have to think about it.

[vinceschubert]

but you're saying there was no hat.

There was the story of hat which was believed in so much that sensations arose.
Now it is seen that the hat was always a story, but residual sensations remain. They are seen for what they are. Sensations that contribute to the apparent reality of the stories content.

What do you mean by life-ing?

Have a guess...

[GotIt]

Have a guess...

Dang! You're one of those people!--the one time I need an answer, and you tell me I have to figure it out for myself! I think you're out to get me! ;)

Rose, tell me some of the way your life-ing has changed since starting this process ?

This assumes my life-ing has changed since starting this process! I guess I want to get defensive and say nothing has changed (which it feels like it hasn't), but okay, to answer your question:

I'm thinking back to the day I was crossing the street and had the very, very brief awareness of me just doing what "I" want to do and believing it's right/I'm right, like I'm in the right in walking across the street, and the car that's turning should wait for me (I have the right of way.), and when I'm driving and turning a corner, I think I have the right of way then also, and I know in my mind then that I'm also in the right and that people who are walking across the street aren't right, and they should wait for me--although I can't be right both times in both instances!

your life-ing has changed

I take that to mean how has my living of life changed since starting this process.

I don't think I have changed the way I live my life since starting this process, okay, wait, I'm not reading stuff like newspapers and books, I'm not meditating, I'm not doing stuff like that that I read here you're not supposed to do.

I've gone through phases in this process. In the beginning I wanted it, (and still want it, even though you say there is nothing to get!, I want to be aware of it or something), and then it didn't happen like I thought it would (it didn't happen early on, and hasn't happened yet). I think things slowed down with it not happening or something. I guess, I don't know, there's the frustration that I had at nothing changing (although you've said things have changed).

I think in the beginning I was paying attention to thoughts, and now I'm trying to look at the reality of experiences or something like that. Sometimes in this process all of my buttons would get pushed, and I'd get defensive (note: this question of how my life-ing has changed didn't push my buttons.).

but still you are looking for an experience to believe that you have 'gated'

If I've 'gated' then how come everything feels exactly the way it did before I started this process? There's no:

You will have doubt thoughts (for a while)
You will be disappointed that there was no sonic boom.
You will laugh your head off at the expectations that you had (have now)

Speaking from the me who feels somewhat blah right now (not necessarily about this process), I haven't felt doubt (except that you'd probably say that everything I write about nothing changing is doubt), I'm only disappointed that I'm still doing this after many, many pages, and not seeing through or whatever (which you might say is me being disappointed that there's no sonic boom and nothing is different), and my head is still on, and there's been no laughing with this.

[vinceschubert]

Life is a concept, like university, it is a word that has no essential essence of its' own, but represents a collection of other, ever changing attributes. Like Truth, it is presented as a noun, but doesn't actually exist as a thing.
Experience also is a mental concept, in this case it is a memory. Consider this. You are experiencing a particular piece of reality, it moves on, then you say you had an experience, but what you have now is only memory of the experiencing. Life is only the memory of past occurrences, of past experiencing. Life-ing, on the other hand is experiencing as it happens. A verb.

in the beginning I was paying attention to thoughts, and now I'm trying to look at the reality of experiences

This is no little thing. The whole 'no self' thing is to get you to recognise that thoughts will lead you astray on the matter of reality. They are the total cause of suffering.
Without doubt (imho) that is occurring.
There will be a 'shift', but it may be subtle and can't be seen while denial is rife. Glimpses can be had in between denial attacks.

If I've 'gated'...

i don't know that you have, you just tick (almost) all of the boxes that say you have. It is probably true to say that you haven't until You know that you have.
i am not outcome obsessed with this process (that requires story). There is just response to that which gets attention. How long it takes, how many pages it generates, is irrelevant. (more story)

[GotIt]

Life is a concept, like university, it is a word that has no essential essence of its' own, but represents a collection of other, ever changing attributes. Like Truth, it is presented as a noun, but doesn't actually exist as a thing.
Experience also is a mental concept, in this case it is a memory. Consider this. You are experiencing a particular piece of reality, it moves on, then you say you had an experience, but what you have now is only memory of the experiencing. Life is only the memory of past occurrences, of past experiencing. Life-ing, on the other hand is experiencing as it happens. A verb.

All correct, and we live a lot from life and not from Life-ing.

This is no little thing. The whole 'no self' thing is to get you to recognise that thoughts will lead you astray on the matter of reality. They are the total cause of suffering.
Without doubt (imho) that is occurring.

So, thoughts lead us down the path of memory, thus life, and we miss out on the now as we're busy "thoughting/thinking". Thoughts lead us to write stories of life (I was good when I did that. I was bad at that, etc.). Thoughts lead us to re-write the reality of what is really happening, and we re-write that reality into stories that we then believe as truth. This is helpful to think out what I think happens, and how I think the thinking/thoughts process messes us up. I could be wrong about what I wrote, though.

There will be a 'shift', but it may be subtle and can't be seen while denial is rife. Glimpses can be had in between denial attacks.

I'll look for the glimpses. Re.: "the thoughts that I have that lead to the re-writing of reality that then lead to stories I believe as truth", the "me" in me doesn't like being told that everything I've done all these years was incorrect (don't confuse the issue with the facts--"I" don't like that!). "I've" been comfortably living in this box for all these years, and now you pull the box off and tell me it was never there???!!! You remove the curtain, and "I" don't like that (and it reminds me of Oz where the answers aren't in the Ruby Red slippers, but are inside you-everything You Need Is Already Within You.)! Oh, and you also told me there never was and isn't now a hat on my head!!!

This is no little thing

I'll try to remember that, and try to live from within experience rather than from thoughts about experience.

It is probably true to say that you haven't until You know that you have.

Yes, I don't think that I have.

i am not outcome obsessed with this process (that requires story). There is just response to that which gets attention. How long it takes, how many pages it generates, is irrelevant. (more story)

Okay, thanks. Oh, wait, Rose, stop writing the stories about how you're not getting anywhere, nothing's happening, etc., and pay attention to what is happening right now, what are the sensations that are there, what is going on in the life-ing, etc.!

[GotIt]

Yesterday I had some quiet time and was looking for a "Rose" in the room where I was. Looking around the room, there was no "Rose/little person/being in the room. I was also looking at this body as just a thing doing stuff, e.g. just a hand that moves. I'm going to look at this again to keep seeing that there is no "me", etc., the stuff of just telling myself/seeing for myself that there is no "me" here, no one doing and being, just stuff happening.

Me thinking out loud and talking to myself: As you might say, there's just life-ing with no lifer--I'm trying to see lif-ing (you can't see life-ing because there's no "one" there to see it Rose), although that brings me to lif-ing is just what is happening all around you/me, just look for it. Lif-ing has no doing or even being, because that implies there is a doer and a be-er, and there isn't. There's just this skeleton with muscles, nerves, etc. on it, this skeleton just clomping, clomping along through life. There's nothing to do and no one to be. I think this is the way it is, I need to lose the "looking" because there's just this, nothing to see as there's no see-er there or anywhere.