Search finally over?

[NoOneKnows]

The reason for asking for further inquiry regarding concepts and stories is the following,
In my daily experience, thoughts mostly comes and goes in the background, to themselves. There is space for them, and it doesn’t feel like I am the thinker of thoughts. There are seldom any gripping and convincing stories, and those are usually seen through quite easily as just stories, and they vanish by themselves.

But today I realised that I was trying to figure out intellectually what intentions are. It was when I sat down and didn’t do anything, that it became apparent that intentions are just another story. So it is possible that there might be a “solving habit” that isn’t clearly noticed when it is happening.

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

Here is a thorough experiment about the notion of control. Please experiment with this several times throughout the day.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there an ‘I’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.

Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

Please spend a whole day investigating this again and again.

Love,
Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Hi Vivien, thank you for the help.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there an ‘I’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

1. No self can be found, no entity makes the body leave the bed.
2. The body gets out of bed, without any decision taking place, and without an ongoing thought or plan while it happens. No agent behind “doing” the getting out of bed. The mind is neutral while getting out of bed happens. A decision never appears. At another time, there appeared a few short thought-images of a cup of coffee, followed by a slight desire for coffee felt in the body. But while getting out of bed, there was still no decision taking place here either, no agent making decisions to get out of bed to get coffee, the mind was neutral while getting out of bed, and there were no thoughts about coffee or anything at all.
It doesn’t matter in experience if there is an apparent underlying craving/reason/story or not, there is still no decision taking place that makes the body leave the bed. Leaving the bed just happens, story or not.
3. There is no thing that makes the body get up. The body gets up itself, automatically, without an external influence.
4. There is no I that commands the body. No thoughts telling it what to do.
5. Internal shouting has zero effect on the outcome.

How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

1. A decision never happens, never takes place.
2. No self, no story, nothing to lose or gain.
3. Standing up happens, without any doer or decision.
4. Nothing is found in experience that makes the body stand up.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

1. It is known that there never is an intention to stand up. There never appears a thought, a cause, a reason, a story or intention. The same neutrality/presence is taking place during the process of standing up.
2. The thought ‘I intend to get up’ is heard multiple times. No reaction is occurring.
3. There is nothing in experience that made an intention to get up. A mystery.
The story would be because I am doing an exercise, but that is not the experience taking place.

Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

1. There is experience of empty space, visual imagery, a few sounds coming and going, cold sensations from breath, and a few energy clusters. Any intention cannot be found anywhere. Awareness completely unaware of intention.
2. Intention is not experienced. There is no intention in experience. Intention is a label for a story, derived from thoughts believed in.

Thank you,
Erik

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

Thank you for your replies.

Previously you asked:

Are there more similar questions, about habitual beliefs, language, stories and assumptions?

Now we start to investigating thoughts.

Generally, there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:
1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to NOTHING in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content / ideas / concepts; just an interpretation, a story ABOUT what is going on.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how they do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.

While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in actual experience and does the other one really point to another thought only?

What about thoughts of intention? (like "I am going to buy some food")

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

Love,
Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.

Thoughts are just thoughts, they appear as sounds or images in experience, and they make up stories. Putting thoughts into categories is a story about how thought-stories belong to categories. Story about story.

Thoughts come and go, and they are a brief and small part of the direct experience, but their stories have no relation to what direct experience is. Story does not equal experience.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in actual experience and does the other one really point to another thought only?

Thoughts appear as sounds or images, they do not point to anything in actual experience, they are for a brief moment a small part of the actual experience. That thoughts point to anything in direct experience is itself a story. For example, the thought “I want to eat something is a thought that belongs to the second category” is itself a story, a story about a story.

What about thoughts of intention? (like "I am going to buy some food")

Intention is a story, derived from thought, and does not exist in actual experience. The thought “I am going to pour myself some coffee because I feel tired” is itself a thought-based story. It's fiction. It is a brief sound, appearing in direct experience. In direct experience, fatigue is felt, craving for coffee is felt, and the story about getting coffee is heard. The story does not make anyone go and get coffee. The “going to get coffee” just happens automatically, without story, intention, thinker or doer.

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

Well, it seems to me that you have a good understanding and recognition of what thoughts actually are. There is just one thing caught my attention:

The thought “I am going to pour myself some coffee because I feel tired” is itself a thought-based story. It's fiction. It is a brief sound, appearing in direct experience.

Is a thought actually experienced as a sound?
Or a verbal thoughts is just the imagination of how those words would sound if they were spoken out loud?

Are there more similar questions, about habitual beliefs, language, stories and assumptions?

What is a habitual belief? And what way or form does it appear?
What is the difference between a thought and a belief in experience?
And what is the difference between language and thought?
Thought and assumption?

These questions can be answered in two ways. One from thinking and pondering on it, the other is to investigate them directly, experientially. Please do the latter.

Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Hi Vivien, thanks again.
These are the bare bone, no story replies.

Is a thought actually experienced as a sound?

In direct experience, there is sight and thought

Or a verbal thoughts is just the imagination of how those words would sound if they were spoken out loud?

In direct experience, there is sight and thought

What is a habitual belief? And what way or form does it appear?
What is the difference between a thought and a belief in experience?
And what is the difference between language and thought?
Thought and assumption?

1. In direct experience, there is sight and thought
2. In direct experience, there is sight and thought
3. In direct experience, there is sight and thought
4. In direct experience, there is sight and thought

Best wishes,
Erik

[NoOneKnows]

Hi again,
The previous replies may not have been useful, as I only wrote what was in my current direct experience (sight and thought), this is how the content appears in experience,

Is a thought actually experienced as a sound?

No, in experience thoughts and sounds differ in their nature of appearance.

Or a verbal thoughts is just the imagination of how those words would sound if they were spoken out loud?

In experience, verbal thoughts appear as an "fictional imitation" of spoken words. They differ in their nature of appearance.

What is a habitual belief? And what way or form does it appear?
What is the difference between a thought and a belief in experience?
And what is the difference between language and thought?
Thought and assumption?

1. Habitual beliefs are experienced as thoughts that are believed to be true.
2. Beliefs are experienced as thoughts that are believed in.
3. Their nature of appearance in experience is different.
4. Assumptions are experienced as thoughts that are believed in.

I hope these answers are useful
Take care,
Erik

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,
Thank you for your replies. Now I would like to ask you to write how things are in your daily life when you are not intensely looking.

You have good understanding of what is actual experience, but what I would like to see what is your everyday life like.

Is there any change since we started this investigation?
What changed and what hasn’t?

Is there a feeling of lack or uncopleteness in everyday life?

Is seeking still going on?

Is there any specific thing that is not totally clear and you would like to look at? If yes, please give an example from your daily life, so we can look at it.

Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Hi Vivien,

Is there any change since we started this investigation?
What changed and what hasn’t?

I would say that the more noticeable changes started to happen during the weeks before this investigation started, due to seeing the absence of a separate self. For instance, noticing the freshness and completeness of the moment while out walking, thoughts become less me/story-centered, a sense of peace that I believe came from not viewing life through the lens of a story all the time, and gradually more and more realizing that I am not the one doing anything.

Since we started the investigation, the peace/stillness has continued, possibly 'deepened'. A speculation I have is that a couple of weeks ago, the recognition of no-self was quite "mental" in nature and with a need to find a new suitable definition/identification for it, whereas now, just the nature of this "isness" itself is more interesting. There is probably some stabilization going on. I seem to connect somewhat better with my body, and people around me. Character traits are still there, although somewhat softened. I feel less reactive, and moments feel more open and flexible.

Is there a feeling of lack or uncopleteness in everyday life?

No, there is a contentment, and a general okayness. Not that everything is good all the time, but I am less governed by negative thought stories.

Is seeking still going on?

Seeking has stopped, in the sense of a me wanting to get anything. I still find it quite fun to look at and investigate direct experience, but not because there is something missing. I sometimes shut my eyes and relax, or do vipassana because I enjoy it, not to get something out of it.

Is there any specific thing that is not totally clear and you would like to look at? If yes, please give an example from your daily life, so we can look at it.

I feel content with experience at the moment, thank you.

Love, gratitude and best wishes,
Erik

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

There is probably some stabilization going on.

Yes. What now needs to be seen through is the conditioning that keeps pulling you back into identification. Years and years of conditioning that you have identified yourself with/as, won’t fall away overnight. This process – yo-yoing between clarity and re-identification - can take several years. This phase (embodiment) includes looking at old trauma’s/experiences/patterns that trigger reactions so as to ‘unhook yourself’ from the stories that have emotions and beliefs attached to them, because this keeps the idea that there is something happening to a someone, a ‘me’….which is identification. It’s not about self improvement anymore, it is about seeing that you are not your conditioning, that these layers have been superimposed and are believed to be a ‘me’. Knowing that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own makes it is easier to clear.

What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear.

Are you ready for these questions?

Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Hi Vivien,
Yes I am ready

Thank you,
Erik

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Vivien

[NoOneKnows]

Hi Vivien, here are the replies

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no “me” anywhere in this experience. I don’t find any sign of an entity, a “me”, residing anywhere, in any form, and there never was.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of a separate self is a belief, derived from stories. At some point growing up, I had the experience of repeatedly hearing parents tell me that I am a person, a me. That I was an entity in this body and that I had any control over what happens in experience. At some point these stories were believed to be true. And from the belief that I am a person, that is in control and responsible for all my thoughts and actions, stories of self-criticism and self-appraisal happened, like “why did I do that?”, “how come I don’t do better than this?” etc. There was a belief that a me was in control and could affect the outcome.

What is different now,
It is quite obvious that I am not the “doer” of the actions. There is no “I” that is typing this text now, no decision or intending taking place. It just happens, like everything else.

Thoughts do their coming and going in the background, no one here is bothered by them. If thoughts happen to make up a gripping story then it is quite easy to see through it, as just a story. Seeing that the story does not equal experience is freeing.

When I am out walking there is the sense that each moment is complete, and contains some beauty. This as far as I know comes from not having an underlying story of expecting what should or shouldn’t happen.

There is a more open and flexible ‘now’, and less judging, reacting and thoughts of “it should be like this”.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I enjoy the sense of an undefinable stillness. It’s a lingering peace in the background. A peace that just is, and as far as I know, comes from experience not being defined/measured/questioned/asked as much.

Being around people, the stories of how we should act and behave have softened. There is not a me that can be attacked or a me that is disappointed in others. But I’ve noticed that this is a learning process, to be able to see what shows up as stories, feelings etc, as it happens.

There is less worry about if things will get done. They will get done. Or they won’t.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I believe that it was a giving up that made a “recognition” happen. Before there were many moments of not seeing a self, but still not “getting it”. I believe that there was a slight story of how the looking had to be in a certain way. And even when knowing that looking was simple, there was still a storymaking of “how” simple looking was. So in the end "I" dropped all expectations of there being anything to find or not, "I" dropped all assumptions about “how” to look.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

They are all thoughts, making up stories. Thoughts appear in experience, but their stories do not exist in experience. There is no me that decides, that has intention, free will, choice or control. There might be a story of a me, as a decider, as a doer of the action, but it is just a story.

I have absolutely no idea of what it is that makes things happen or how it does work, and I find it quite hilarious sometimes. Maybe brains are running the show, but this experience still cannot know that.

I often find “myself doing" something that never was decided. I noticed my fingers “flicker” against each other just now. There never appeared any decision, intention, free will to choose it, choice or control. It just happened, by itself, automatically. It is a mystery as to how or why it happens.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Responsibility is a story about a person making decisions and being in control. There is no me, no me that chooses thoughts, no me that is in control, no me that is “doing” the actions, no me that is “responsible” for anything that happens.

There might appear a craving for pasta, so I go and make pasta, and eat it. When finished, a thought might appear saying that “I ate too much, I shouldn’t have, I have to get better at keeping the weight in check”. That thought would be the responsibility-story about a person having control, but in reality, I never made any decision to eat the pasta, or to even have the responsibility-thought at all.

With heart and gratitude,
Erik

[Vivien]

Hi Erik,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

Love,
Vivien