Deepening Recognition of No-Self

[Harry]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand the purpose of this guide is to see though the subconscious labelling of several components (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, etc.) as a self… that there is a thinker in addition to the thoughts, a perceiver in addition to perception. I have experienced this directly before in my practice, as well as understanding it conceptually.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a deeper understanding of the absence of self and a better accessibility towards that understanding, so that I can realise it more quickly in any given moment. I’m also interested in helping others.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Perhaps specific inquiry questions or pointing out instructions to enable recognition in present experience, or discussion about the sense of self on a conceptual level. Discussion points could include the different personal roles, beliefs and ideas constructing the self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
From a secular viewpoint, I’ve practiced a number of traditionally Buddhist meditation techniques including Shamata, metta, vipassana and nature of mind practice. I’ve also practiced self inquiry, or looking for ‘I’, within many of these techniques.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Let's be clear about a couple of your replies:

I am looking for a deeper understanding

"Understanding" is of the mind. What is found is a mystery we cannot understand.

discussion about the sense of self on a conceptual level.

There will be almost none of this. There's no point in attempting to discuss or understand something that does not exist.

What does happen here is experiential exercises we call pointers, so that you can see for yourself.

If you can follow this, then let's proceed.

Much love,

[Harry]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks so much for your correspondence thus far, it is much appreciated!
My name is Harry and I'm based in Australia (Australian Eastern Standard Time/AEST).

Just to confirm, I have read both the disclaimer and the 'liberation is not' document.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

1. Having experienced the absence of self multiple times before, I've tasted the inherent space and freedom of this experience. Therefore, I expect that perhaps this flavor of freedom would be able to integrate into my life better, or the sense of separation between daily life and these glimpses would be found to be illusory.

2. I will perhaps be brought to realize any limiting preconceptions I may be holding on to, including this 'searcher'.

3. A clearer experiencing as things are, on a regular basis, as distinct from occasional glimpses.

4. I'm not sure if anything is missing, or what it would be!

Many thanks,
Harry

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Harry,

You're welcome!

It looks like it's about 1 am on AEST. I'd be sound asleep!

A lot of clients come here having seen no self, but still searching, simply because we don't understand that this will come & go, possibly for years. Very few wake up to all truths, all at once. We call it "got it, lost it "

In fact, nothing was "lost." You simply ran into some unquestioned lies/ beliefs/ stories. This suggests the solution: question these! Find the truth in that area & you'll "see" again.

This happens to nearly everyone, including "me." Relationships are a common subject for this. The Work of Byron Katie is an especially effective way of questioning our untrue stories. I've tried to guide on that here in the forum, but it is laborious due to the nature of the back-and-forth. It takes forever to do in the forum what you can do verbally much faster.

But let's start with what we *can* do here. Seeking should probably fall away. Yes.

Expectations of some permanent state are another false belief that will get in your way. Expectations or fears are the only things that can prevent SEEING.

So, next:

What comes up when is read there is no separate self, never has been & never will be? That this is all just a made up story?

Loving,

[Harry]

Good Morning Stacy,

Thank you for sharing these insights! I especially found this helpful:

In fact, nothing was "lost." You simply ran into some unquestioned lies/ beliefs/ stories. This suggests the solution: question these! Find the truth in that area & you'll "see" again.

Expectations or fears are the only things that can prevent SEEING.

And for your question…

What comes up when is read there is no separate self, never has been & never will be? That this is all just a made up story?

This question helped me glimpse no-self again, as for a few moments, it’s clear that any wondering or doubting that arises is just another thought.

One thing I’m already experiencing more with your help is that this shift is always available in any state should I know where to look, rather than itself being some kind of state?

With gratitude,
Harry

[Anastacia42]

Hi Harry,

Excellent. You're welcome.

should I know where to look, rather than itself being some kind of state?

That's how I do it. I can drop in in an instant because of some pointers I learned in a workshop that only happened once, but was recorded. If you'd like access to those pointers. please PM me an email address (top right here.) That could be all you need.

I do want to share this about how to reply here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Harry]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for clarifying the conceptual knowing vs direct seeing, I think I appreciate that the value lies in the present experience.

So, in answering your questions, I’ll do my best to just relay my experience as it is - right now I haven’t got socks on!

Thanks for your help.

All the best,
Harry

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome, Harry

Well, socks or no socks give this a try. And notice EXACTLY like this example.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Harry]

Thank you Stacy,

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

This sounds great and I can’t wait to try tomorrow!
I’ll keep you informed with my experience.

With much gratitude,
Harry

[Harry]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for emailing me those mediations - I’ve begun looking into the first few and they seem to be really clear and accessible for me.

The ‘Labelling Daily Experience’ practice has been effective too, here is one moment I can share with you while on the ferry on my way back home…

Hearing: sounds of engine, background voices
Seeing: colours and shapes of rippling water through the window, interior of ferry.
Feeling: sensations of weight and gravity against the seat; slight tingling sensation in arms, legs and hands.
Thinking: the labelling for the purposes of this exercise!

Wishing you well,
Harry

[Anastacia42]

Good morning Harry,

I'm so glad you find those meditations accessible. I was there & I love them.

Remember how much I emphasized doing ‘Labelling Daily Experience’ EXACTLY like the example? You didn't.

It is actually very different to notice & list the experience & THEN classify it.

Please look at the instructions again. Then do some more of those EXACTLY like the examples. I want to see at least a dozen items, please.

You're not the first person to do this. I suppose I should add "in the exact order" or something.

It is not about providing one example of each DE. I

It is about noticing your experience & then finding what the DE of your experience is.

Okay? Thank you.

[Harry]

Good Morning Stacy,

Thanks for your patience, I think I’ve got a better idea of the exercise now.

Actual Experience of having supper:
- sounds and sights of opening packet
- thoughts about seeing and hearing
- thoughts about being unaware of actual experience
- taste
- background sounds of traffic
- thoughts of labelling
- sensations of itching on face, sensations of movement
- thoughts of labelling
- sensations of movement with typing
- tingling sensations in feet
- thoughts
- seeing
- thoughts (doubting, is this it?)
- seeing, hearing
- tasting, sensations of chewing

Is this more on track?

Thanks for your help,
Harry

[Harry]

With added labels!

- sounds and sights of opening packet = sound + image/colour
- thoughts about seeing and hearing = thought
- thoughts about being unaware of actual experience = thought
- taste of food = taste
- background sounds of traffic = sound
- thoughts of labelling = thought
- sensations of itching on face, sensations of movement = sensation
- thoughts of labelling = thought
- sensations of movement with typing = sensation
- tingling sensations in feet = sensation
- unrelated thoughts = thought
- seeing = image/colour
- thoughts (doubting, is this it?) = thought
- seeing, hearing = image/colour + sound
- tasting, sensations of chewing = taste + sensation

[Anastacia42]

Hi, yes,

The second time you got it. Good.

Let's take this a step further now:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.

Loving,

[Harry]

Hello Stacy,

Thanks for your help, I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to explore this with you!

Mind Labelling Experience:

I am seeing the room around me,
I am hearing sounds of a plane,
I am hearing sounds of birds,
I am feeling sensations in the back of my neck,
I am feeling sensations in my feet and back, and head,
I am feeling sensations of breathing,
I am hearing sounds of birds,
I am thinking thoughts about future plans and responsibilities for today,
I am feeling sensations in my legs,
I am feeling sensations of breathing and gravity in my body,
I am seeing the room around me,
I am hearing sounds of birds.


feeling hungry,
Thinking about future responsibilities,
Feeling restless,
Blinking,
Feeling sensations of weight,
Feeling openness,
Feeling slight headache,
Feeling hungry,
Thinking thoughts about this exercise,
Scratching ear,
Hearing birds and traffic,
Feeling openness and clarity,
Seeing the room and hearing birds,
Hearing faint sounds of vibration,
Seeing the room,
Feeling hungry,
Thinking of future plans,
Feeling hungry,
Feeling sensations of breathing.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second label, without the addition of an ‘I’, seemed to me to better describe my experience… it felt that ‘I’ was the experience (if an I is there), rather than there being an extra ‘I’ in addition to the experience.

2. What is here without labels?

Sounds, sights, sensations are arising, but all on their own. And thoughts and feelings in the same way. All that is happening is an experiencing of these spontaneous occurrences.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The label coloured the experience… as if it was another experience in addition to just the hearing/seeing/etc. When the label was a thought, then it would occur afterwards, but very quickly, so that what is being labelled is almost instantly forgotten.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

In the second 10 minutes, there was more of a sense of openness and spaciousness, perhaps it was a body sensation but it’s hard for me to pinpoint. Definitely there was more relaxation in the body at times though.


Many thanks and I hope you’re well,
Harry