Rio's corner

[rio]

Hi Kay,

So look carefully…

What is it exactly that is holding onto something for safety? What is it exactly that you need to let go of? It seems you are still thinking that there is a you who decides when letting go happens or not. Where is this you that is in control of anything? Do you actually let go of anything, or are you being let go of? Do you let go of thought, or does thought let go of you? Do you let go of sensations, sounds, smells, tastes or do they let go of you….do they not arise and subside of their own volition? Is a ‘you’ needed for any phenomena to arise and subside?

Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

Wow, Thanks for this great/powerful pointer.

This has stirred up a lot of debates in my head between different point of views, I feel there is a lot of goodness to unpack in there :)

I would like to spend some more time contemplating on this and then will share any questions/insights.

thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio...by all means - take the time you need.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Sharing one of my current avenues of inquiry that sparked from your pointer -

If life(all AE's) is just happening, and not to someone/me in particular, and the 'me' is just a concept created based on past experiences(All AE's), then who/what am I?
However, The answer to 'do I exist' is yes, and also to 'Am I aware' is yes, and if the 'me' is a concept, so then what am I?

thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hello Rio,

All our investigation looks at is to see what we are not. We are not the illusory autonomous, separate finite conditioned self that is governed by erroneous beliefs; who suffers whilst trying to navigate and survive life. That is who we believe ourselves to be. As you continue to investigate reactions, conditioning, beliefs, trauma etc, you become clearer with who you are not, and through this, it becomes clearer to what you are. Having said that...I am not an non-dual fundamentalist that dogmatically denies that I wake up in the morning, go about my day and go to sleep at night.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Do you let go of thought, or does thought let go of you? Do you let go of sensations, sounds, smells, tastes or do they let go of you. do they not arise and subside of their own volition?

Brilliant pointer. They come and go as they please.
It's interesting that there is chasing after certain experiences and aversion/resistance to others created by the thought system in-spite of the transient/temporary nature of the phenomena.

What is it exactly that you need to let go of?

Yes, I don't have anything to let go off. Even the attitude is changing by itself as it comes across new conditioning. Understanding takes place or it doesn't and I have no control over that.

Is a ‘you’ needed for any phenomena to arise and subside?

A 'you' is not needed as all phenomena is unfolding on it's own accord(causation/laws).

What is it exactly that is holding onto something for safety?

I am not sure, the existing belief system? So something triggers/generates the fear and I am just aware of it and it's not my fear. It arises and then subsides.
I have a question here,I am not clear on who/what believes in the thoughts? Right now in my experience most thought stories get cut off by 'is it true?' thought.

The feel dilemma is that 'I' cannot be defined to be anything, nor can I say that 'I' don't exist.
Even the definition of 'I' as awareness in my case feels inaccurate, I feel I have somehow made an object out of 'awareness'

I am happy to report that there was some deepening in 'life is not happening to me' understanding. It had been there even though 'I am not the doer' understanding was understood to some extent. For some reason I had split the 'doer' and 'bearer of experience' in my understanding even though most teaching take them as just the 'doer'.
Also happy to report that this particular exercise has shaken the existing belief system and created a lot of confusion and resulted in the arsing of new questions. I felt that I had plateaued in this regards for a while there before.

thanks,
Rio

[rio]

Hi Kay,

All our investigation looks at is to see what we are not.

Gotcha.

We are not the illusory autonomous, separate finite conditioned self that is governed by erroneous beliefs; who suffers whilst trying to navigate and survive life.

My first reaction is that, off course I get this. But I feel I need to question the 'I' that is hiding/trying to escape the inquiry.
There seems to be a bad tendency in me to react with - I have heard that before, I get it and I need to hear something novel to make any progress.

As you continue to investigate reactions, conditioning, beliefs, trauma etc, you become clearer with who you are not, and through this, it becomes clearer to what you are

I have not tackled any traumas(except for the one we worked on during the skype call).
I am not sure what do you mean by reactions?
Do you distinguish between conditioning and beliefs? I think my path so far has been working with these.
Also what all is included in that bottomless 'etc' :)

Having said that...I am not an non-dual fundamentalist that dogmatically denies that I wake up in the morning, go about my day and go to sleep at night.

This statement just made my current state of confusion worse, ahaha

thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hello Rio,

You are wanting a clear concise answer to your question....a clear concise answer to 'what am I'. I can't give you that answer. That answer won't become clear until it does. Guides can point the way to you seeing what you are not, and in that you can begin to become aware of your 'true nature' ...but there is an undoing that takes place before you begin to live from that place. That confusion will keep arising because re-identification continues to happen. How long that takes is anyone's guess. Having an 'aha' moment that you are not the finite separate self does not stop re-identification from happening, it is simply an insight into seeing that you are not the finite character in the dream...even though you are seemingly appearing as one and experiencing life as a finite Rioself. So experiencing life as Rio continues, however, separation and suffering is optional.

I am not sure what do you mean by reactions?

When you are triggered you have a reaction. That is one of the fundamental questions of Byron Katie's worksheet. How do you react when you have that thought. It's looking at how you react when something happens and pushes your buttons. How do you react? It is through reactions that we know that whatever is happening, be it an event or a person, is pushing our buttons. If you are reacting then you are identifying as something. Be it a rejected self, angry self, fearful self, abandoned self, shameful self. The fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses are also reactions. There are many ways in which we identify as the character in the dream through eg, our deficiency stories of not being good enough, being unlovable, unworthy, feeling diminished, shameful, guilty etc, as well as our trauma stories and our conditioning. The many ways of believing we are separate and suffer.

Do you distinguish between conditioning and beliefs? I think my path so far has been working with these.

Conditioning is programming, and programming is based on beliefs we receive from when we are born and onwards.

Having said that...I am not an non-dual fundamentalist that dogmatically denies that I wake up in the morning, go about my day and go to sleep at night.

This statement just made my current state of confusion worse, ahaha

I have seen that there is no Kayself, however, I still wake up in the morning and feel that I am in a body. I am still working my way through undoing conditioning etc. So, even though I have seen that I am not a finite separate character, I still identify as Kay. I have no clue if or when that will change. In the meantime, I continue on with the undoing of the idea of separateness and of being the doer and sufferer.

Do you let go of thought, or does thought let go of you? Do you let go of sensations, sounds, smells, tastes or do they let go of you. do they not arise and subside of their own volition?

Brilliant pointer. They come and go as they please.
It's interesting that there is chasing after certain experiences and aversion/resistance to others created by the thought system in-spite of the transient/temporary nature of the phenomena.

Yes, because you still identify as the thinker, feeler, sayer and doer. Seeing through the idea of being the character in the dream doesn't immediately put to rest these identifications. It's a work in progress until it isn't.

What is it exactly that you need to let go of?

Yes, I don't have anything to let go off. Even the attitude is changing by itself as it comes across new conditioning. Understanding takes place or it doesn't and I have no control over that.

Wonderful! :)

What is it exactly that is holding onto something for safety?

I am not sure, the existing belief system? So something triggers/generates the fear and I am just aware of it and it's not my fear. It arises and then subsides.
I have a question here,I am not clear on who/what believes in the thoughts? Right now in my experience most thought stories get cut off by 'is it true?' thought.

You believe the thoughts. Who else is there? Are there two of you? No. It is you who gets caught up in thoughts and sensations. It is you who gets caught up in fear! It is you who reacts. Who else would it be? It is you who believes you suffer, and it is you who believes that you are separate and finite. The pointer of being aware - of being awareness isn't that there is you as awareness, AND a separate finite entity called Rio. You believe, as awareness, that you are that character! That is why we deconstruct the character so you can see that you haven't actually become the character, that you are actually infinite and unlimited, whereas the character is made up of phenomena that comes and goes. So it's not that you don't appear as Rio, because you are appearing as Rio...it's just that you have forgotten what you are and believe you have actually BECOME the character. It's like an actor who plays the role of batman and forgets that he is playing a role, and believes he has become batman. You, as Awareness have forgotten (you are playing hide and seek with yourself) what you are and have mistakenly believed yourself to being the dream character. That doesn't mean you aren't playing out ie appearing as the dream character and experiencing the dream characters experiences...it's just that you are seeing that you are not the limited, finite dream character, in order to remember what you really are.

Anyway, I have gone beyond the purview of what this thread is about. I understand your confusion but you won't get it until you do, and no amount of anyone telling you, will make it happen any quicker. Yo-yoing ie confusion and clarity go hand in hand and are a bitch...but it happens to everyone and continues until it doesn't. What your actually wanting is for the confusion to go away so that you no longer feel the discomfort of the confusion and other emotions and questions that the confusion evokes. The mind wants a clear concise explanation and description so it can put it into a box of "I get it", because it believes that then it can rest peacefully. Good luck with that! :) I rewatched the Matrix last night...and since you and I both swallowed the red pill, there is no going back...but that doesn't mean that this awakening journey is a smooth short ride!

So let's continue with our exploration. This one is still looking at the body but with a time twist!

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears, notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

Every time you return to the mirror, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

This is the only time I have even been aware of the exact colors and exact story about the body.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

I could not find any previous appearances of the body for comparison. It cannot be known that the body has appeared before.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Only thought claims that this is the same appearance as before, though it's not true.

I can't even imagine my face/body to the exact detail when I am not looking in the mirror.
I find Every experience is brand new and is not even fully explored/looked at because of this tendency of the mind to ignore 99.99% of what is and only seek for what it thinks is best for the story of Me.
I was walking around and noticing my attention gravitating to the same things of interest and ignoring everything else. I then looked around and found that there is so much detail everywhere/in everything which is equally enjoyable and can be looked at with a sense of wonder/awe as things are just appearing all by themselves with no effort on my part.


thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

I was walking around and noticing my attention gravitating to the same things of interest and ignoring everything else. I then looked around and found that there is so much detail everywhere/in everything which is equally enjoyable and can be looked at with a sense of wonder/awe as things are just appearing all by themselves with no effort on my part.

Beautiful :)


With the following exercise we are going to look at the idea of memory, which also touches on the idea of past, present and future.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand, as a memory thought (words or mental images) is believed to be referring to something that has happened in the past. Memory thoughts are also thoughts about a future that may or may not happen based on past experiences. A future thought is a thought that projects an idea about a future based on past memory. The majority of us ‘live’ in past or future, but when are those seeming ‘memory’ thoughts actually taking place?

Sit quietly somewhere for 10 or so minutes and watch the arising thoughts. Notice the thoughts that contain content that refer to a past or future. Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just look at what the direct actual experience is.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

Is there any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Is there a difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future as actual experience? If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?

Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these?

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

Memory is an AE of thought. It consists of images, stories. It's made of the same stuff that a thought is made of. The knowing of it.

Is there any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

I cannot find any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought in actual experience. The difference is suggested by thought itself via it's content.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

It appears in the now.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It is suggested by thought itself and not known in actual experience.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

it is an AE of thought. It consists of images, stories. It's made of the same stuff that a thought is made of. The knowing of it.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

in the present moment

Is there a difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

I cannot find any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought in actual experience. The difference is suggested by thought itself via it's content.

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It is suggested by thought itself and not known in actual experience.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future as actual experience? If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

In principle there is no difference between the thoughts about past and future as actual experience.
The difference is suggested by the thoughts itself.

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

A past or future cannot be known.All that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now.

In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?

Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these?

I cannot find any of those in actual experience. Just memory thoughts suggesting that it is the case.

thanks
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Lovely looking and responses re memory thoughts.

So let's go back and see if the ‘watcher’ or ‘awareness’ (aka Knowing) is separate in any way from ‘what is known'. We’ll do a little experiment on hearing for this.

Here's what’s needed - A place to sit quietly and some sounds. Any sound will do, music, birds singing, traffic, rain etc. Choose one sound to focus on.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breath and let the dust settle. Close your eyes and listen to the sound. And from the direct experience of hearing, answer these questions:

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than sound?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
3) Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?
Can a 'hearer' ever be found in sound? Or is there simply sound?

Is that confirmable experientially?
If no INHERENT HEARER is found, would anything suggested as the hearer/perceiver be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?


...and let's take it a little further.

Do you experience the birds (assuming you are listening to birds singing), to be independent of sound?
Don’t go by what you think must be true in order to explain perception. Instead, go by your direct experience.
Do you also experience a bird making the sound? In other words, do you experience a bird in addition to the sound?
You would be experiencing a bird existing outside your experience. But do you?
Going by hearing alone, is there anything directly experienced about the bird other than a bird-sound?

Do you experience a sound to be independent of hearing? Or there is do division between sound and hearing, there is simply soundhearing?
Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing ?
Do you directly experience a sound already present which you then proceed to hear?
Do you experience the sound as separate from you?
Do you experience it to be at any distance from you?
Do you experience hearing to be independent of the ‘watcher’ or awareness?
Do you experience hearing itself as something existing outside of the ‘watcher’?
Do you hear hearing?

Now think about the other senses for a moment.

Do you see hearing?
Do you taste or smell hearing?
Do you directly experience a moment when awareness is absent ?

Lots of questions but a good experiment. It's a good time to summarise your findings.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Here's what’s needed - A place to sit quietly and some sounds. Any sound will do, music, birds singing, traffic, rain etc. Choose one sound to focus on.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breath and let the dust settle. Close your eyes and listen to the sound. And from the direct experience of hearing, answer these questions:
1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than sound?

There is just the AE of sound.

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

There is only sound and what is doing the hearing is not found.

3) Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?

An 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' cannot be found in actual experience, there is just AE of sound. An 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' are only in AE of thought. Thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound.

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?

there is just sound through and through. or you could say that there is hearing through and through. it's the same 1 thing that is going on in the moment.

Can a 'hearer' ever be found in sound? Or is there simply sound?

There is simply sound and A 'hearer' cannot be found in sound. Only thought suggests the 'hearer'

Is that confirmable experientially?

Experientially there is only sound and 'hearer' is not found.

If no INHERENT HEARER is found, would anything suggested as the hearer/perceiver be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?

'Hearer/'perceiver' is a concept/speculation, in actual experience there is just AE of sound and a 'hearer' is not found.


I will need more time to work on the rest of exercise.


thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hello Rio,

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?

there is just sound through and through. or you could say that there is hearing through and through. it's the same 1 thing that is going on in the moment.

Yes, 'hearing', 'hearer', 'sound' are ONE and the same thing. Hearinghearersound. No division, no boundaries, no distinctions.

I will need more time to work on the rest of exercise.

No worries :)

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Do you experience the birds (assuming you are listening to birds singing), to be independent of sound?

No, there is just 'bird-sound'. just sound labeled by thought as bird sound.

Don’t go by what you think must be true in order to explain perception. Instead, go by your direct experience.

in direct experience there is just sound arising. no hearer and no bird to be found in the sound.

Do you also experience a bird making the sound? In other words, do you experience a bird in addition to the sound?

I do not experience a bird in addition to the sound.

You would be experiencing a bird existing outside your experience. But do you?

Only thought imagines that there is something outside the immediate actual experience. I cannot experience a bird outside my experience.

Going by hearing alone, is there anything directly experienced about the bird other than a bird-sound?

No, only bird-sound is directly experienced.

Do you experience a sound to be independent of hearing? Or there is do division between sound and hearing, there is simply soundhearing?

I do not experience sound independent of hearing. There is no division between sound and hearing, there is simply soundhearing.

Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing ?

I cannot experience anything outside my own experience.So I do not experience a sound waiting to be heard-outside the scope of my hearing.
thought imagines/speculates that is the case.

Do you directly experience a sound already present which you then proceed to hear?

There is just hearing-sound that arises in the moment. Sound already present and outside my scope of hearing cannot be directly experienced. only thought assumes that is the case .

Do you experience the sound as separate from you?

No, I do not experience sound separate from me. There is just sound arising in the moment.

Do you experience it to be at any distance from you?

No, I do not experience any distance from the sound.

Do you experience hearing to be independent of the ‘watcher’ or awareness?

No, I do not experience hearing to be independent of the 'watcher'/awareness. one thing only.

Do you experience hearing itself as something existing outside of the ‘watcher’?

I do not experience hearing itself as something existing outside of the 'watcher'

Do you hear hearing?

No, I do not hear hearing. There is just soundhearingawareness in direct experience.

Do you see hearing?

No, i do not see hearing.

Do you taste or smell hearing?

No, I cannot taste or smell hearing

Do you directly experience a moment when awareness is absent ?

No, I cannot directly experience a moment when awareness is absent. awareness is present in every experience.

thanks,
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hello Rio,

So how was it doing that last exercise with sound? What did you find when doing the exercise?

Oaky...it's a good time to see where we are at with your exploration.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

Can you pinpoint when exactly you felt the shift when realisation happened, and how the shift itself was felt?

And has anything changed? And what hasn’t changed?

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

Kay

PS. I have sent your a PM.