Waking up

[Bashopoem]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That our thoughts and emotions are just patterns and energy passing throb is and there is no permanent "me" behind this directing it all.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to more thoroughly wake up to the reality of no-self. I've gotten glimpses of emptiness and non-duality through my meditation practice, but I don't feel free from my thoughts. I also still tend to identify with the witness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I tend to do better with a more structured approach to things like this. I expect that a guided conversation will help me see the ways in which I'm attached to or creating a self that I do not currently realize.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating for 12 years. The past 5 years has been in the Zen tradition with a teacher.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[warissem]

Hi

Welcome to this forum, I am glad to accompany you along this journey of seeing through the illusion of a separate self. During our dialog there is a need to respect some rules :

Commitment : you engage to be commited to this dialog, it means you check up once a day in the forum to give answers to my questions. If you cannot do it once a day, let me know.

Avoid all reading books, listening to audios or watching videos about spirituality, advaita, enlightenment, ... during this dialog. Forget all what you know about this subject.

Read the disclaimer text here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221

Learn how to use the quote function here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you agree with these, we can begin.

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Hi Warissem. I'm pleased to meet you and very much appreciate your help along this journey!

I commit to checking in on the forum at least once per day. I will avoid reading books, listening to audio, or watching videos as described. I also have read the disclaimer and watched the video on how to use the quote function.

Thanks for your help!

Bashopoem

[warissem]

Hi

Great. What is a separate self in your own words ?

What are you expecting through seeing that there is no separate self ?

What are the expected changes ?

What is missing right here right now ?

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

What is a separate self in your own words ?

To me, the separate self is a construct created by my mind. It's ego-based identity, the "story of me," which changes over time based on my experiences.

This "I" is added after the fact of experiences. For example, lifting a glass and drinking water. In the moment, when staying present, all that exists is the somatic/sensorial experience of drinking the water. Then, after the fact (although almost instantly) my brain adds in the layer of "I'm" drinking this water. The problem for me is that "I" is so sticky and I really have to concentrate to see that there is no "I" there in the moment of drinking the water. Also, my ego seems to want to identify with the awareness of that experience.

What are you expecting through seeing that there is no separate self ?

I'm expecting to have a different relationship to my thoughts and emotions. To not be so engaged with, seduced by, and jerked around by them.

What are the expected changes ?

More peace, less anxiety, and a greater feeling of connection to everything. To be guided more often by the source rather than my ego.

What is missing right here right now ?

Technically, nothing is missing right here right now. It's more that it feels like my ego refuses to let go of its association with the witness, which is my default mode of operating.

[warissem]

Hi

To me, the separate self is a construct created by my mind. It's ego-based identity, the "story of me," which changes over time based on my experiences.

This "I" is added after the fact of experiences. For example, lifting a glass and drinking water. In the moment, when staying present, all that exists is the somatic/sensorial experience of drinking the water. Then, after the fact (although almost instantly) my brain adds in the layer of "I'm" drinking this water. The problem for me is that "I" is so sticky and I really have to concentrate to see that there is no "I" there in the moment of drinking the water. Also, my ego seems to want to identify with the awareness of that experience.

You will learn how to look at direct experience then you can see by yourself that what is written above is about thoughts.

I'm expecting to have a different relationship to my thoughts and emotions. To not be so engaged with, seduced by, and jerked around by them.

Yes.

More peace, less anxiety, and a greater feeling of connection to everything. To be guided more often by the source rather than my ego.

It could be.

Technically, nothing is missing right here right now. It's more that it feels like my ego refuses to let go of its association with the witness, which is my default mode of operating.

Before asking any question, I want you to be familiar with Looking at direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). Example : you receive a phone call from a friend who asks " is your brother at home ?" . There are two ways of answering : first, you think that your brother is at home and give the answer immediately or second you say I will look for him, get up and go to his room or wherever and look and give the answer.

To be sure that you understand what I mean by looking at direct experience, please give some examples.

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

OK. Direct experience.

In this moment, there's the somatic experience of sitting in this chair, feeling of pressure at the connection points. Legs are warm where skin touches leather, and there's a slight tingling sensation running through the back of the thighs. There's the sound of the air conditioning running, the fan whirring and air blowing. Seeing the glow of this computer screen and the cursor moving as words are typed. Vertical black line blinking slowly.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come from the ether and return to it.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

We can force a thought. For example, thinking of a white bear.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Thanks!

[Bashopoem]

Apologies, I pressed reply too quickly and missed the last question.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I do not see an organized sequence, no. I do see that can thoughts build on each other from a cause an effect perspective. For example, I think of my wife and then remember that I need to ask her a question.

[warissem]

Hi

Have you given the answers after having looked at arising thoughts or have you given answers through your logic ?

They come from the ether and return to it.

Have you seen the ether in direct experience ? Can you describe it ?

We can force a thought. For example, thinking of a white bear.

Does a thought arise by itself ? Is there a you which can force a thought to be ? Can a thought be known before it arises ?

For example, I think of my wife and then remember that I need to ask her a question.

Do you choose to think of your wife or something else ? If it is so, is there a basket full of thoughts from where you pick the chosen thoughts ?

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Hi.

Have you given the answers after having looked at arising thoughts or have you given answers through your logic ?

I did the exercise as you suggested because I want to be faithful to this process.

Have you seen the ether in direct experience ? Can you describe it?

The ether is the big open space of nothingness or "being-ness" from which all things arise. It's the source that cannot be understood nor accurately described. Yes, I've seen this in direct experience.

Does a thought arise by itself? Is there a you which can force a thought to be? Can a thought be known before it arises?

There's the interesting sensation of being able to influence thoughts, like needing to think about something specific for work and being able to reliably call upon habituated knowledge. But I do see that individual thoughts arise by themselves, yes. If I trace back that which seems to be able to "force" a thought far enough I see that there's only the nothingness.

Do you choose to think of your wife or something else ? If it is so, is there a basket full of thoughts from where you pick the chosen thoughts ?

There is no choice involved. The topic of "wife" arose on its own.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi

Yes. Are thoughts separate from the knowing of them ?

Is seeing separate from the seen ?

An exercise for you : Just lay down or sit down, close your eyes and answer to these questions :

When looking at direct experience, what is a body ?

Does a body has a size, a weight, outside of thoughts ?

Is there a frontier between sensation of a body and sensation of a chair (if you are sitting) ?

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Are thoughts separate from the knowing of them ?

No.

Is seeing separate from the seen ?

No.

When looking at direct experience, what is a body ?

Physical sensations. Pressure and tingling.

Does a body has a size, a weight, outside of thoughts ?

No. Any calculating of size and weight are thoughts.

Is there a frontier between sensation of a body and sensation of a chair (if you are sitting) ?

No. It's all one field of sensation.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi

Good. It is interesting to elaborate your answers a little more.

There is another exercise for you :

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Before giving an answer, be sure that it is what is seen through direct experience.

Warissem