Seeing that Frees

[vinceschubert]

No worries, take your time...

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again Vince!

Thankyou for sharing the experience of spaciousness.

So is this where our dialogue ends?

That wasn't intended. ..but it may be time.
Before you go, would you answer some questions that i will show to other guides to see if i have missed anything?
Be relaxed answering them. It's not a test.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, not at all. Its impossible to be separate from all that is happening here and now, to be apart from THIS. Because it is impossible to be apart as a separate entity (popularly called the self) the self does not exist except as a thought. And by the same logic cannot ever have existed.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Thoughts and statements that are made here by this character called Surya which say 'I' did that or 'I' thought that or its 'my' body or 'my' mind. The compulsion to link anything that is happening or will happen with this mind/body organism as the controller of experience...Through this enquiry the Surya character more frequently sees the thoughts of 'I' arise and just knows that they point to an illusion and are not to be taken seriously. Sometimes they are taken more seriously than others especially where there are strong feelings or sensations. This enquiry has shown that this illusory self cannot be shown or pointed to anywhere. It is just a thought or image and has no tangible substance.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It feels quite insignificant to see this, like 'so what'! At the time it felt midly disappointing but also exciting and intriguing as time went by and there were occasions where subtle shifts in sense of being happened. Sometimes more openness and relaxation and feeling of interconnectedness. Sometimes more boldness in communication and less self consciousness.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The difference is that i saw briefly in experience that its impossible to be separate from life and that therefore i am not the controller of thoughts, words and deeds...my behaviour has been a little different to before. Less reactivity with partner during annoying and challenging communication over this last weekend! Any conflict blew over more quickly. Taking things less personally, like a criticism at work today. Sense of regret for a mistake that may or may not have been linked to a patient suffering. Being more curious about whats happening here and now. This has been greatly helped by Ilona's Deep Looking sessions and Vince's excellent guiding. There is often a welcoming of experience happenning and experimentation with viewing all of life as flowing perfectly glitches and all!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

During a deep looking session with Ilona her questions about whether or not it was possible to be separate from all THIS helped me experience that impossibility. It was a simple seamless experience of inter-penetration with everything present.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Thoughts arise as single words, or sentences or longer stories or images and i can believe that they are pointing to an actual person called Surya. The very existence of these thoughts which can seem so definite and alluring can convince me that there must be a self here. But there are numerous examples where what is desired here does not happen so how could that be if there was a controlling self. If there was a controlling self then everything that was desired would manifest. It seems to me therefore that i am not in control of lifes happening, i do not make decisons or choices, they just happen. Thoughts seem to dialogue in such a convincing way as if there is a choice or decision being made but actually the outcome is never guarunteed. The conclusion from this is that there is no free will because if there were i could control what happens.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

i am not responsible for anything though the Surya character plays some part in a mysterious co-arising of conditions (to use a buddhist concept) Today taking a bloodtest a patient said it didnt hurt. there was a sense of pleasure here to hear that but then a sense of puzzlement as there had been no thought of intention to do anything differently to usual. its a mystery how that happened and it happens the other way around when patients say it does hurt and nothing seemed to be different then either! it therefore seems crazy to say i am responsible although there was something happening here that contributed to that outcome.

6) Anything to add?

it took a considerable amount of time to see that there were lots of expectations of how the seeing should be. There was a subtle story going on about what was not happening. Experience was overlooked by these expectations. Vince has helped me to look differently and to see what was/is actually happening. This is so so helpful.

Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

This illusion was introduced and reinforced by the parents of the Surya character at some point in early childhood (maybe?) telling her who and what she was and through concensual reality all the other people she encountered reiterated this. They told her she was all sorts of things that were more to do with their hopes or fears than about the actual character Surya. Surya believed most of what she was told and seemed to act with that notion of an independent self. So the story goes and the life stories of Surya are many and varied depending on the moment they are recounted and retold. Conditioning of all kinds like gender, class, race etc all contribute to the mix and may or may not be included in the story.
After seeing through the illusion of a separate self the Surya character saw some of the stories more clearly. Like 'I'm like this' and 'I'm like this because of that' and experienced some of those stories like a straight jacket.

Can you remember any specific enquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self

As said earlier the deep looking process and Ilonas questions about if it were possible to be separate from all of THIS.

Take each of these and find examples in experience for each of them. Decision, intention, free will, choice, control and responsibility. On looking for an example of that which no longer exists, then an example from before and another from after it changed.

Sorry no, can't bear to answer these questions again!!!

Thanks so much for everything Vince

With much gratitude and love

Surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Surya,

Sorry no, can't bear to answer these questions again!!!

Oops, my bad. i didn't mean to ask them again. (copy & paste mistake)
Ok, let's see what other guides see in your responses.

love

v

[Mamaki]

Phew Vince!

Thankyou and let's see what they say. How long might it take?

Love and gratitude

Surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Hi Surya, A guide asks this;

...i do not make decisons or choices, they just happen.

Is there an I who can't make decisons, choices?
Is there an I who can't think?

Another guide suggests that you guide.
i think that's a great idea.

love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi againVince,

Great to have such a swift response.

A guide asks this;

...i do not make decisons or choices, they just happen.

Is there an I who can't make decisons, choices?

Maybe! A subtle sense of owning the inability to control...
...who or what can't make decisons, choices...? there is something here where thoughts happen, choices and decisions happen and they are not controlled by anyone.

Is there an I who can't think?

Good question. Thoughts in a bit of a tangle here. Not sure. Hard to get a hold of what these words point to...hmm...Guess they point to nothing! No 'I'. Sense of aliveness here with thoughts making stories and judgements and a lifetime of the habit of selfing. Vince says this process is subtractive rather than additive so that resonates here with a letting go of claiming control over thoughts, decisons and choices...

Another guide suggests that you guide.
i think that's a great idea.

Yes that is a good idea thankyou for the encouragement! Feel so grateful for all ive received through this dialogue or should i say all that's been experienced through your excellent guiding. Would like to share what's been 'grokked'! Had never come across that word before this dialogue!

love and warmest appreciation

Surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Surya, anther guide asks; "can Surya think or do anything ? What is Surya in your own words ?"

v

[Mamaki]

Hi againVince

OK, here goes...
"

can Surya think or do anything ?

No, Surya doesn't 'do' or 'think' anything; thoughts just arise and actions happen as part of the movement of life.

What is Surya in your own words ?"

Surya is a label for an inaccurate sense of continuity of experiencing. Based on thoughts, feelings, the 5 senses and other people affirming the identity. This sense of continuity has been kept in place by thought stories. There is a story about a character who was born in certain circumstances and has lived and thought and done certain things and this story seems to hold together a sense of an actual character here. But the character Surya is not the owner of the story. The character Surya describes very incompletely and inaccurately a body-mind organism that feels very intimate. Honestly it's such a mystery really. These sensations, thoughts and feelings occurring over here do not have an additional being called Surya making them happen. Yet everyone one i know seems to relate as if Surya is real and has agency.

Feeling less clear about how to describe this now! Perhaps doubt is clouding seeing?

Looking forward to hearing the guides response

Love Surya 🌞

[vinceschubert]

Good afternoon Surya, There are no further questions for you. It has been a genuine pleasure to explore concepts with you. I really enjoyed our dialogue.

Keep an eye out for a PM notification (it will show up next to your username) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare group on Facebook. Your username will be changed from green to blue and soon this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, and you will be able to access it with the same link as your thread.

i am always available to you either via PM or email (just click on my name anywhere)

i applaud your interest in guiding. Read a few threads on the forum and find a guide to ask to mentor you then just ask admin to join LU Guide Central saying that you want to guide.
There are 18 seekers waiting at the gate now and the longest has been there just for a few days short of a month. ..busy, busy...

with love

vince