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[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,

I hear you. Being anxious all the time is not fun, I agree. Now, we have to look how much of it is triggered by this inquiry, and how much of it had been present before we started.

Is this fear of death related to this inquiry, or is this an old belief that you’ve had many times in your life?

Also, has the anxiety been triggered by this inquiry, or is a long-standing pattern?

Vivien

[justthis]

Is this fear of death related to this inquiry, or is this an old belief that you’ve had many times in your life?

The fear of death (annihilation) that I spoke of in my earlier post started when I was just a small kid. This more recent Anxiety started when I had an episode at work with cold medication. I take blood pressure medication, I had a really nasty cold so I unknowingly took medication at work that had a stimulant in it, I had a really messed up experience, I ended up in the hospital, they checked me out and told me that I was fine that I should never take anything like that again on top of my blood pressure meds. After that I was hugely aware of everything going on in the body. The slightest little thing that caught my attention going on with the body could trigger a panic attack. I started looking for an answer, I found a little video that Eckhart Tolle put out on anxiety and put it into practice and it kept the random anxiety attacks away for a good while until one of my renters passed away in my home, I found him dead in my bathroom, I was afraid they would think I had something to do with it. I didn't of course, The coroners said he died from a fall he had about 2 weeks prior to his death. He had brain bleed. He was an alcoholic. After that the anxiety attacks got worse, I went to a specialist here in town but she tried to feed me the positive thoughts routine which does not work so I quit her. Next guy I found online his name is Michael Norman claims he has the cure for it, Hyperventilating techniques, personal inventory taking and soothing cd sounds. Not working. Only thing that seemed to help a little was Non-duality speakers, Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, Kenneth Madden, etc. I feel a deep connection.

I started taking personal inventory when I was in AA in 1992 so I'm no stranger to inquiry's, Plus I was deeply involved in the Ramana Maharshi "Who Am I" inquiry process for about 3 years. But I knew deep inside that I needed to find out for myself, my own experience, instead of just trusting what others were talking about or pointing to.

Also, has the anxiety been triggered by this inquiry, or is a long-standing pattern?

No I don't really see any signs of the anxiety being triggered by this inquiry, it was prior to this inquiry. The anxiety is related mostly if not all of it in regards to the sensations, tiredness, rapid heart beat, tightness in the chest in the body and mental movies about dying from all this. I've been reassured by medics/doctors that I'm fine, strong heart, everything looks fine, had a heart monitor on for two days, normal results. When I'm focused on other things I'm actually feeling good. Thought is definitely responsible for getting it started, and it can be as simple as walking up the stairs and breathing hard can trigger it. This body is getting older and I'm feeling it. Don't know if there's such a thing as midlife crisis, probably just another story...

[justthis]

I have been quite upset at times that I cant do some of the things I used to be able to do. I was quite a physical person, loved hiking, playing baseball, fishing in the ocean, etc..I'm still pretty healthy for 63, I just feel the pains in the body and with it comes the book store of thoughts.

[justthis]

My mother passed away in October 2020, I watched her die in hospice care.

[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,

Thank you for sharing this with me. The thing is that awakening is not a tool for making anxiety go away, at some cases it can make it even stronger. Why? It’s because anxiety is about the personality, about some emotional wounds that you might carry around from early childhood.

This inquiry won’t help with that. For that it would be much better to find a therapist or some similar modalities.

When there is any form of suffering (including anxiety), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant as might many expect. These things need to be worked through separately.

Honestly, therapy probably would be much more suited for you at his moment. Or, as an alternative, you can look into Byron Katie’s ‘The Work’, which deals with those beliefs that makes us suffer.

Seeing through the self won’t undo these.

Vivien

[justthis]

Hi Vivien,
Thank you for the considerate response.
So are we continuing with the work here?
I'm very willing to move ahead. Your guidance here is important to me.

Stephen

[justthis]

Hello Vivien,

After considering what you wrote I will deal with the anxiety as a separate issue from this inquiry. I do want to continue with seeing through the self. I feel there's been progress here. So let's please continue.

Stephen

[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,

All right, let’s start looking at the notion of control.

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?

Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

Vivien

[justthis]

Is the separate self doing anything in life?

No, but it does appear to have an affect on the body when its believed in. Also I've noticed that the only time there's a belief in the separate self is when attention is put onto it.

Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

I don't recall how it came about, and it wasn't until someone made reference to it (separate self) being an illusion did I start looking into it.

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

Yes, The so called separate self has no control over the 5 senses and thought, they purely happen on their own, I have seen this demonstrated over and over again. So much so that I don't need it (separate self) to function daily. Its not well liked here.

What do you do right now for this to be?

I used to think that without this separate self nothing would get done, but I've seen it demonstrated that its actually the opposite, the separate self has been a lie that I've projected to the world that it was "ME" that did this or that, total lie.

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?

Reading happens or it doesn't, either one doesn't need a me to happen on its own. Same thing with answering this question, the question is heard and then words are put together automatically to respond and I never know ahead of time what words will appear or what questions will be asked until they appear.

Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?

How could a me sit? this body is sitting, just like the body can stand up and that too happens on it own, same thing with eating a meal, the body gets Hungary and then eats, there's no me needed for any of that.

Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

it has been seen that the idea/content of a separate self falls away, yet seeing goes on no matter what, just like hearing, touching, smelling, thinking, tasting, I spent almost an entire life time adding a "ME" or overlaying/covering over on top of life creating suffering.

[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,

I have seen this demonstrated over and over again. So much so that I don't need it (separate self) to function daily. Its not well liked here.

“I don’t need it (separate self) to function daily.” – What do you refer to with the word “I” in this sentence?

What is this I that can function without a separate self?

“It’s not well liked here” – interesting. Who has a problem with the separate self?

Who is that that doesn’t like it, and not welcoming it?

I spent almost an entire life time adding a "ME" or overlaying/covering over on top of life creating suffering.

What/who is this I that spent its whole life adding a me on top of life?

Is there someone that life is happening TO?

Is there someone having a life?
Or there is only life without someone having it?

Vivien

[justthis]

“I don’t need it (separate self) to function daily.” – What do you refer to with the word “I” in this sentence?

What is referred to is just what is happening on its own.

What is this I that can function without a separate self?

Just life happening on its own. Sometimes I use the I or me to communicate.

Who is that that doesn’t like it, and not welcoming it?

A belief that there is a separate self that can be disliked, its a story.

What/who is this I that spent its whole life adding a me on top of life?

imagination in the mental movie stream.

Is there someone that life is happening TO?

Only if there is a belief there's someone life is happening to. No there isn't.

s there someone having a life?

There's no one here having a life, there's just life, but an imaginary me can appear to be having a life, like a mirage.

Or there is only life without someone having it?

Yes there is only life as it is without someone having it.

[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,
Thank you for your replies. I’m not sure from reading your replies if you actually see it in experience or it’s just a good intellectual understanding.

And by seeing I don’t mean to see it a few times and now remembering those seeing, but actually seeing it again and again in your daily life. So which one?

If you say that the me is no welcomed here, then in that moment it's believed that there is a me... and actually that not-welcoming is on behalf of that me!

Be very careful not to try to talk yourself into the notion that there is no me there, when it's fully believed. Rather look... never ever rely on a memory of a previous looking. Always look afresh.


Please give me some update what is happening in your daily life.

What changed in your everyday life?
What hasn’t changed?

Vivien

[justthis]

And by seeing I don’t mean to see it a few times and now remembering those seeing, but actually seeing it again and again in your daily life. So which one?

I see it in experience, I see thought content very clearly, but most of that is imagination except for functional thoughts used to do my job etc., so how could there be a believing in a me that's total fiction that is thought content? there are many times during the day when the thought content arises (me chatter) but my job takes precedence over the content because that is what's happening now, The whole day is like that. Like a yo yo... thoughts coming and going, everything around me coming and going, but there's still just here and now like always, the only time when I'm not in the here and now is when its being veiled by thought content of some kind but its still going on anyway even if I cant see it clearly. that's what I meant when I said I was adding me on top of what is now and suffering as a result.

If you say that the me is no welcomed here, then in that moment it's believed that there is a me... and actually that not-welcoming is on behalf of that me!

Yes I agree, But after, I nearly always see that content as fiction

Please give me some update what is happening in your daily life.

As you know I've had to deal with occasional panic attacks and generalized anxiety. I found a course at Ilovepanicattacks.com, I enrolled in the course and it seems to be working. I'm feeling much better. with normal anxiety like I experienced this morning, there is no thinking about the symptoms, because there's something I can do. But with generalized anxiety anything can be a trigger, thoughts, feelings, places, etc., and then there was always thinking about the feelings I was experiencing which elevated the adrenaline levels. So I'm reprogramming the brain sort of speak.

For the most part I am not Agoraphobic, I am out doing stuff. and I'm involved in liberation unleashed.

I've spent the last six years helping my parents, my mom passed last October and Dad is in a assisted living facility, I've handled most everything that had to do with there financials, doctors, hospitals, banks, social workers, etc. Its much easier to deal with now, since mom passed.

What changed in your everyday life?

People I disliked before I'm getting along with now, mainly because I'm more available and making the effort, I'm seeing how unaware people are and how unaware I was of this metal mind stream that we seem to think is who we really are. I'm feeling empathetic about others situation in life. I'm not spending a ton of money on books and other related material anymore, my eyes are opening up more to what is and what is not.

In my experience of going through this with you, there seems to be a lot of work to do here, so the question keeps coming up about all these nonduality speakers that keep saying that the self has fallen away, there's nothing to do, and and I never hear them talk about work they did after the self fell away or was seen through. Are they just believing that there's no self? or have they really done the work that they seem to be hiding from others?

What hasn’t changed?

I cant seem to be of any real help to other people, like I thought I might be doing at some point, that was an expectation that has some disappointment attached to it. If there's no me then who is there to help? I stopped going to AA meetings because I'm not sure what to even say anymore, been a member for almost 30 years.

[Vivien]

Hi Stephen,

As you know I've had to deal with occasional panic attacks and generalized anxiety. I found a course at Ilovepanicattacks.com, I enrolled in the course and it seems to be working. I'm feeling much better.

It’s good that you’ve found a way to deal with anxiety. However, there is something here that worth looking it.

Please make sure that you actually look (many times) with the following pointers, and don’t just put these aside saying to yourself that there is no self to be anxious. OK?

Look… when there is anxiety… what/who does it happen TO?
Who/what is anxious?

And more importantly, who/what has a problem with it?
What is it that doesn’t like it?

What is it that trying to change it?

In my experience of going through this with you, there seems to be a lot of work to do here, so the question keeps coming up about all these nonduality speakers that keep saying that the self has fallen away, there's nothing to do, and and I never hear them talk about work they did after the self fell away or was seen through. Are they just believing that there's no self? or have they really done the work that they seem to be hiding from others?

I cannot speak on behalf of teachers. Some are just hardly seen through the self, some not even seen through it fully. Some are really clear, while others not. Some are totally honest, some are not. But most teachers don’t know about direct pointing, what we do here.

If there's no me then who is there to help? I stopped going to AA meetings because I'm not sure what to even say anymore, been a member for almost 30 years.

Saying, since there is no self here there is no one to help, is a spiritual bypassing, it’s a form of a denial, and it’s quite common.

Just because there are no other selves in other people either, it doesn’t mean that there is no suffering.

Actually, it’s a quite common myth (even spread by some teachers), that there is no self, so there is nothing to do. That’s just pure denial by the self! It’s a mental stuff only.

Vivien

[justthis]

Hi Vivien,
Its very warm here in Seattle today, all time high, extreme heat warnings 100+ temperatures.

Please make sure that you actually look (many times) with the following pointers, and don’t just put these aside saying to yourself that there is no self to be anxious. OK?

Yes I hear you thx.

Look… when there is anxiety… what/who does it happen TO?

It happens to me (self). I'm creating my own suffering, easy to see.

Who/what is anxious?

I'm anxious (self).

And more importantly, who/what has a problem with it?

I have a problem with it (self), it ruins the quality of "my life" lol.

What is it that doesn’t like it?

I don't like it, referring to (self).

What is it that trying to change it?

I don't like it (meaning self) so I'm trying to reprogram myself so I don't have to feel the unwanted version of anxiety. Normal anxiety there's no problem with. Its like hitting myself over the head with a hammer so I wont feel the pain. I see that its ridiculous but its better than the the way it makes me feel. I have also noticed that when I'm not thinking about it at all there's nothing...no anxiety or anything else, just ordinary life.

So is this a spiritual process?