Looking for Truth

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

There are the final questions, elaborate on each of them and answer from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi Warrisem - I submitted my answers earlier today but they appear to be gone - did you see them?

Thanks, Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I have not seen your answers, they don't appear in your thread. To avoid the disappearance of your text, write it first on a winword file then copy/paste it here.

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi Warrisem - I did have a copy, although not quite final, so here it is again.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, I cannot find any reference to their being a self, me, I, anywhere I look with direct experience.

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The separate self appears to be a persistent thought and belief that there is an I that is in charge of actions and thoughts of the body. It shows up in my personal experience as a repeated thought that seems very real and that fits in with commonly believed norms of society. What is different now is that I see through this thought/belief although there are times when it is convenient to simply deal with society as if it is real, all the while knowing it is not real. Like dealing with a child at their level of knowledge about Santa Claus, not attempting to change their belief but going along with it as needed. All talk of the I is just a linguistic convenience.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The experience of life feels more peaceful without the I. There isn't an I to feel stress although physical busyness remains. It also feels integrated. While clearly the bird has a separate body than this body, there is a sense of integration that was not there before.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Getting past the idea of "I think", and how easily the linguistic triggers of i, me, you, etc brought up the belief in the I

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There is no I to decide, or intend, or free will, choice or control. What I had previously considered an I is being lived. Life just works, Everything appears to be integrated and working together as one unit.

The walk in the park is the first example. Walking through and experiencing it as integrated instead of individuals.

At work, wrapping up the project and experiencing it as an integrated happening. What once would have been a problem to overcome now seemed to be merely a turn in a different direction.

As there is no I, I don't have to work things out; everything works together and things get worked out.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Life will have me show up, as needed, and on time. That isn't really my being responsible as life moves me, there isn't an I to decide when to show up or how to show up or with what.

At work, equipment showed up as needed after I had shifted out of the I. People with the right skills showed up on time. This wasn't according to my boss's preconceived notions of how it should be, but what showed up worked and worked well.

6) Anything to add?

My thanks !

Sincerely, Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I submitted your thread to other guides for further questions or confirmation. It will take a few days. Thank you for your answers.

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi Warrisem - I am very thankful for your assistance, and please extend my thanks to the other guides.

Sincerely, Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

While clearly the bird has a separate body than this body, there is a sense of integration that was not there before.

What do you mean by "the bird has a separate body than this body" ? Would you elaborate on that ?

Thank you, Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi Warrisem - from observation, the bird is able dig for worms and fly. This body, which for linguistic convenience, I will call mine, cannot do that. It also does not borrow into the ground like a marmot or jump like a deer. There are, by observation, bodies displaying different abilities than mine.

Thank you again, Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Is there a body outside of thought ?

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi Warrisem - now THERE is a thought! (pun intended). I must have missed this concept, will go back over our discussion and look at this again.

Thanks, Lisa

[Questioner88]

Hello - I did find the section on the body, and am going through the questions again. Will get back to you gain later today.

Thank again, Lisa

[Questioner88]

Hello again- looked over what we had written about the body, keeping in mind the thought, is the body a thought.

I am unable to quote the applicable section as the website will not let me both reply and search other pages at the same time, so I cam copying and pasting from my saved text file of our conversation.

Can the body to be a thought, despite direct evidence of a body? It can be poked, smelled, seen etc. Yet the actual experience of a body does not have clear borders.

Quoting here, from page4:
From page 4:

Hello again -
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, to all of the above.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No, to both above.
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
No, I can not tell the difference between inside and outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the bod
The label 'body' seems to be applied to the combined sense of the touch of, the sensations supposedly inside the body, sounds, smells and sight of the physical structure we think we live in. As I can't find an edge to the feelings of what we call the body, but the eyes (supposedly) do see an edge; it is easy to believe that the feelings correspond to what the eyes see. Apparently what we call the body is self-sensing and built from the mind putting all together.

The actual experience of the body is much less defined. I experienced it to be more an energy field, or overlapping energy fields, and a carrier of the senses. You turn the body to see in another direction, or tip the ears in the direction of a faintly heard sound. Perhaps best described as a floating sensory experience with no edges, larger than the body, but fading out as you move away from the visual edges of the body. Strong emotion or physical pain is experienced as a large, powerful energy field with no edges and extending well past the body that can take over all other sensations of the body.

(I am not sure that your requirements for direct looking include sensing emotions in others, but I am noting this. In talking with a friend today, I was easily able to feel her emotion although she is thousands of miles away. I had no visual or auditory cues, so the ability to sense emotion is not necessarily restricted by space or four senses. I sensed how she felt by the physical sensations in my own body that when I feel them, I label as emotion. My friend confirmed what she was feeling when I asked her. But emotion is not something to be seen, heard, tasted or smelled, but clearly felt as a body sensation.)

And yet there is nothing I find - who or what - to experience this very vague idea of a body. The body seems more like both an expression of energy and a sensor of energy than anything else. I can't even say that it is mine.

We left the discussion there.

So yes, I agree with you, the body could very well be nothing more than a thought. Direct sensing cannot prove it to be the physical thing we often call the body.

The fading out of ability to sense (bolded above) is what makes the appearance of a bird seem separate. Then I sat with that again.

I had seen the body as the ability to sense via an energy field that we call the body. The duck has a different ability to sense than this body does.

So I am still sitting with this one and open to more questions that might help.

Still feeling a bit confused here.

Thank you again, Lisa

[Questioner88]

Hello one more time!

Now I am wondering, is everything I sense just a thought? Are senses thoughts as well? To have a thought, does the brain have to exist?

Have to sit with this too.

Thanks again, Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Thank you for your answers.

So yes, I agree with you, the body could very well be nothing more than a thought. Direct sensing cannot prove it to be the physical thing we often call the body.

A body as a it is imagined is a thought, yes but there is seeing of colors (what is called skin), there are sensations, etc, ...

The fading out of ability to sense (bolded above) is what makes the appearance of a bird seem separate. Then I sat with that again.

What is said here is only a thought. Yes the bird is separate from the body but is there separation between the bird and the knowing of it and between the body and the knowing of it ?

I had seen the body as the ability to sense via an energy field that we call the body. The duck has a different ability to sense than this body does.

Who or what is saying that ?

So I am still sitting with this one and open to more questions that might help.
Still feeling a bit confused here.

Who or what is feeling confused ?

Now I am wondering, is everything I sense just a thought? Are senses thoughts as well? To have a thought, does the brain have to exist?

Who wants to know ? Are you or is it Lisa ?

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi again - I have spent the day mulling this over although was at work. Still mulling. It does appear that everything is a thought. Sensations of shock. Will get back to you!

Thank you once more, Lisa