am i where i presume i am...or not

[Jigme]

Hi nona, bit coldy at present so it will short reply, still looking,
that film you mention i saw last year and it is very interesting, and i was in fact mulling it over a few days before you mentioned it, and natalie goldbergs comments re creative writing, ie the editing thinker comes later, and the creativity is thought /editer free, and how they relate to this exploring.
still looking and seeing.
ian
x

[nonaparry]

Thanks for checking in, Ian!

love
Nona

[Jigme]

Hi Nona,
an update briefly on what i've been noticing these last few days, as i allow the possibility that the I is only ever found as a thought, and cannot be found anywhere else, because its non existent beyond those ideas/thoughts, is that mind is less caught up in the thinking, especially the I thinking. Seems like there's even gaps where a relaxation of mind is sensed, and only immediate experience noticed, until the thinking churning mind turns on again. Though there was a whole bus load of I thoughts the other night, as potential conflict with another person, spun a web of I fears and thoughts, and when anger got expressed from me the day after, and the absurd over stated stories fell from my lips, but i was able to more easily loosen the hold those thoughts had. what was noticed a bit more clearly was just how the whole mechanism of the i story, needs constant re creating by other thoughts, anger cannot be sustained over a period beyond the initial event and response unless an i story holds it up and re creates it...and that requires belief in the thought that there is an i to be protected.....so it seems this belief is crumbling away. keep looking though. if you have any more pointing out questions it may be useful for me to apply or look at , please send my way
ta
Ian
x

[nonaparry]

Hi Ian! I hope you're feeling better.

what was noticed a bit more clearly was just how the whole mechanism of the i story, needs constant re creating by other thoughts

Yes. Amazing, eh?
So LOOK around you; look at what is really there and check if the label points to the real thing. Label "computer" points to a real computer; labels "desk" and "chair" point to real desk and chair. Label "body" points to a real body. You are LOOKing at them. What does label "I" point to? Check it! LOOK same way you looked at computer, desk, chair, body. Is there any "I" at all in reality?

if you have any more pointing out questions it may be useful for me to apply or look at , please send my way

I have a whole arsenal! I choose based on your responses, so write me everything that's happening. As much as possible stay in direct experience: everything real is available in direct experience; everything unreal happens in thought only.

Here's an exercise. Close your eyes; get very clear where 'me' is, and when you've got it, lift a hand and with a finger Point to the 'me'. Then open your eyes and look at what the finger is pointing to. What is it? What did finger point to?

Touch your leg. Touch it. Now the left arm, and the chin, now touch the right ear, and the nose.
Just follow through on this.
Now touch Ian.

Where is it? Where is Ian? In the body, outside the body, in thoughts?
Can you at least point to it with a finger?

Can you touch that which is looking through the eyes? If not, how do you know that there is something there at all?

Looking forward to your reply,
love
Nona

[Jigme]

Here's an exercise. Close your eyes; get very clear where 'me' is, and when you've got it, lift a hand and with a finger Point to the 'me'. Then open your eyes and look at what the finger is pointing to. What is it? What did finger point to?
answer ....as if in reflex the finger points to the head, and then another time the heart area, but once the eyes are open it seems absurd in a way that the fingers pointing at anything physical, as it can just as easily point to another physical area, ....the finger could be equally equated with me, and its then pointing at me, but that only disproves that a me can be pointed to, but then the thoughts might suggest that the I and me is hidden...but cant be found like that....so where is it then, shouldn't the I be seen, revealed then, somewhere...so looking looks, and still no sign of Ian or me...even when asked to reveal itself, it wont, it cant, its non exisitant, just ideas, and misinformation and confusion....

Touch your leg. Touch it. Now the left arm, and the chin, now touch the right ear, and the nose.
Just follow through on this.
Now touch Ian.
answer ....No Ian can be touched, certainly not in the physical and real experiential and now way the leg can the chin can, What can touch an Ian, Ian is only an idea, a thought can think it is touching a thought but thats absurd and isn't real. No Ian to be touched at all.

Where is it? Where is Ian? In the body, outside the body, in thoughts?
Can you at least point to it with a finger?
answer ....No, not at all... the idea of Ian can suggest that he can be sensed in thoughts, but thats only another idea....an idea attempting to convince it is more than an idea....is still an idea

Can you touch that which is looking through the eyes? If not, how do you know that there is something there at all?
answer.... It cannot be known that there is something there at all, as that is the very idea that isnt real. Just being is looking out through the eyes, so to speak, the body, the mind the thinking, the living is happening, responding, living is just living, .the idea that an I can touch living is only another idea, a separation thought, that I am living and responding, when living is just happening, no such touching is possible because its not real, only a thought, a collection of thoughts, that say I am ...i am . It is not known that there is something there behind all this looking, this living, not because it is hidden, but because there isnt anything, never has been anything there .....and therefore cannot ever be found or touched, and nothing that could do such a touching or finding any way.

some replys, for you to take a look at.
the cold seems to be staying in the background and not developing too much
thanks again
Ian
c

[Jigme]

Hi Nona
another try at
Can you touch that which is looking through the eyes? If not, how do you know that there is something there at all?

answer.... i look at my hands on the keyboard, , what is seen is seen in looking at hands, keyboard, edges around eyes, glasses frame, though blurred.,. hearing hum of computer, birds. distant tv, i assume those noises are those things, thoughts, sense of me in here looking out, just another thought, fingers punch keyboard, words appear, look at screen, read words, wonder and wander into thoughts. touch left palm with right fingers, heat felt, solid resistance felt, throb of blood felt, everything in this room that is seen and sensed and all heard is experienced, but who can say that its not Ian or is Ian, its all just here , happening, full and complete.... where is Ian, nowhere and never was/is, and will not turn up...really will not turn up....and even the buts are fading

how do you know there is something there at all???
Answer....You/I can never know there is something there at all, Life senses knows life, looking knows looking, seen is seen, heard is heard.....there is life, just as when the leg is touched or the foot is looked at, it is known that this is real life, not imagined invented thought life, but right now experience, when the looking asks is there something there at all, it knows only life or knowing or looking or experiencing is happening....just being

Ian
x

[nonaparry]

Hi Ian,

Glad the cold is not developing much; sometimes fears generate ill-health as a distraction from Looking.

even when asked to reveal itself, it wont, it cant, its non exisitant, just ideas, and misinformation and confusion....

Indeed.

Ian is only an idea

Good to notice!!

the idea that an I can touch living is only another idea, a separation thought, that I am living and responding, when living is just happening

Nicely noticed.

i assume those noises are those things

Yes. And it's the unquestioned assumptions that get in the way of SEEing what is true. Is the noise a computer itself? a bird?

sense of me in here looking out

Do you SEE a "sense of me"? Is there a little Sense of Ian in the head, looking out through the eyes? Check it!

where is Ian, nowhere and never was/is, and will not turn up...really will not turn up....

Cannot turn up, in reality, because it never existed at all. Same as Batman or a Tooth Fairy.

when the leg is touched or the foot is looked at, it is known that this is real life, not imagined invented thought life, but right now experience, when the looking asks is there something there at all, it knows only life or knowing or looking or experiencing is happening....just being

Nice.
So what exactly is this "Ian", this "me", this "self" if not a body with a cold, a judge of thoughts, a controller, a do-er? Describe in detail, thanks.

New exercise: check if there is a 'running commentary' apparently in the mind while real life is being experienced. Is there languaging happening describing what is being experienced?

love
Nona

[Jigme]

Hi Nona....

So what exactly is this "Ian", this "me", this "self" if not a body with a cold, a judge of thoughts, a controller, a do-er? Describe in detail, thanks.
Answer....Its a string of thoughts, like velcrose with hooks and hoops, each me thought is grabbed by the next me thought, unless its dropped, and this gives a sense of a continuum. But this thought hooking can be cut ie the thought isn't taken seriously as evidence of me, or just a broken train as another thought provides a distraction, or even real life breaks in and interrupts. This sense of Ian is only ever just a train of thoughts, with each thought containing, it seems a voice that this is me, but this is an idea within an idea, or like a viral disease contaminating some thoughts....the me thoughts....
life is happening, ie cold feelings, physical responses, thoughts about what is happening, and then this idea or bunch of ideas that 'woe is Ian who is having this cold,' and then the train begins, until it stops. A fixation of me thoughts a bit like a dog who is entertained and obsessed even by the stick that's thrown, and then suddenly forgets all about that game and goes sniffing a tree. so the thoughts of me, they can be let go of, but if the I is believed will go on longer than they need to , and set up a memory, a pathway, which will set up more of the same for the future, which will ensure the I continues longer than it could do once it re-arises in another thought. Thoughts so full of an idea of future and ideas of past, thoughts that dont live in now at all. So idea Ian cannot live in Now, only as another thought event, but not the content, which is only a pretense at being present.

New exercise: check if there is a 'running commentary' apparently in the mind while real life is being experienced. Is there languaging happening describing what is being experienced?

Answers....Quite a lot of this commentary going on. Though more and more looking and not believing its commentary which seems so full of I , me and them and you etc, the quicker it stops and life can be more visible and noticeable. Though there is also capacity to notice commentary, as it is languaging as you say, without getting caught up in it, and believing the commentary, at these times it is looked at with interest and it just comes and goes, like all events, even commentary is part of life and living, and just rattles on, and falls away. It only seems a problem if the commentary is taken more seriously than it needs be, usually meaning it is believed to say something about about an Ian.
Life is happening. Thoughts comment on it, sometimes these words get close, but never completely accurate, never can be, always only close, and often this commentary is very far away from what is really happening.
some work on your exercises
Ian
x

[nonaparry]

Dear Ian,

So what exactly is this "Ian", this "me", this "self" if not a body with a cold, a judge of thoughts, a controller, a do-er? Describe in detail, thanks.

Answer....Its a string of thoughts, like velcrose with hooks and hoops, each me thought is grabbed by the next me thought, unless its dropped, and this gives a sense of a continuum. But this thought hooking can be cut ie the thought isn't taken seriously as evidence of me, or just a broken train as another thought provides a distraction, or even real life breaks in and interrupts. This sense of Ian is only ever just a train of thoughts, with each thought containing, it seems a voice that this is me, but this is an idea within an idea, or like a viral disease contaminating some thoughts....the me thoughts....
life is happening, ie cold feelings, physical responses, thoughts about what is happening, and then this idea or bunch of ideas that 'woe is Ian who is having this cold,' and then the train begins, until it stops. A fixation of me thoughts a bit like a dog who is entertained and obsessed even by the stick that's thrown, and then suddenly forgets all about that game and goes sniffing a tree. so the thoughts of me, they can be let go of, but if the I is believed will go on longer than they need to , and set up a memory, a pathway, which will set up more of the same for the future, which will ensure the I continues longer than it could do once it re-arises in another thought. Thoughts so full of an idea of future and ideas of past, thoughts that dont live in now at all. So idea Ian cannot live in Now, only as another thought event, but not the content, which is only a pretense at being present.

Beautiful, cogent description!!!

New exercise: check if there is a 'running commentary' apparently in the mind while real life is being experienced. Is there languaging happening describing what is being experienced?

Answers....Quite a lot of this commentary going on. Though more and more looking and not believing its commentary which seems so full of I , me and them and you etc, the quicker it stops and life can be more visible and noticeable. Though there is also capacity to notice commentary, as it is languaging as you say, without getting caught up in it, and believing the commentary, at these times it is looked at with interest and it just comes and goes, like all events, even commentary is part of life and living, and just rattles on, and falls away. It only seems a problem if the commentary is taken more seriously than it needs be, usually meaning it is believed to say something about about an Ian.
Life is happening. Thoughts comment on it, sometimes these words get close, but never completely accurate, never can be, always only close, and often this commentary is very far away from what is really happening.

Watch, really look at how this play-by-play commentary builds an "I" out of thin air! There is no you at all; only the illusion of a 'you' that is created before your very eyes by mind.

love
Nona

[Jigme]

Hi Nona, i am still here...emm so to speak!
Just to let you know I have been looking at the commentary, I am doing a few days at home retreat and using your suggestions as a basis for looking.
so two reports....first whilst out walking in countryside, quietly, chewing over ....'Watch, really look at how this play-by-play commentary builds an "I" out of thin air! There is no you at all; only the illusion of a 'you' that is created before your very eyes by mind.' It feels almost impossible as the noise of thought commentary is so rushing, though theres awareness of the surroundings and immediate sensations ie hot or cold breeze on arm and hands, sounds, birds, cows etc, greens and other colours etc, . realised after an hour i had got into thinking about Looking, and not directly looking, and that and getting caught up in emotive thoughts of me and my life, meant ii was quite exhausted with so much chatter, when i'd noticed this, it disipated enough to get a little closer attentive look, and maybe see that yes the chatter of me arises...but also possible it is always chattering in background and then gets louder when paid attention too! the clammer of thinking as i walked had made it difficult to get much perspective i feel..
this was perhaps proved when after id got home, and sat with cuppa tea in me chair, i was just gazing out at sights and sounds and room and window etc, and the relaxation was clearer and much much less me thinking going on, and only then as background chatter, and then perhaps it is easier to notice that me thoughts do just arise out of thin air, as do all thoughts, imaginings , wanderings etc....but there seems to be this voice still that says well yes, but it could equally be said that this constant me chatter is always there, and is only ignored when theres a quiet mind going on, and then becomes louder when payed attention to...so thats no proof of non existent me. Me thoughts have become very loud over the years of my living, identified heavily as the place where truth and answers will be found, and maybe this makes it hard for an acceptance they really are just illusory and pop up from the thin air of just being a human being with mind as it is....emmm
Today feel quite tired, but plugging on, a bit frustrated and a bit challenged, signs that the looking is having some effect perhaps. I will continue to look with wide open eyes at what mind throws up and what is said about such events and happenings, and especially what is assumed about the Me and the I that is projected on the screen of being....note to this being, dont get trapped up into the story of I am whilst Looking, looking can get confused into thinking about looking, and thats the way to just more head banging, though interestingly that method can exhaust even think mind afetr a while and some releasing may occur where real looking can then be seen...and see.

[Jigme]

Hi,
Today reflecting and looking seems more spacious.
Applying premise the I commentary has only ever been an illusion from thin air. Therefore everything Ian has ever done to effort himself into an idea of a self has been a waste of energy. laugh and cry. what a waste of energy has gone on through supposed history called Ians life...oh well. and then again, freedom is letting even that story go too. What is this is all the truth of it, whats left, just living. ah that feels relaxing and open.
Ian
x

[nonaparry]

Dear Ian,

Applying premise the I commentary has only ever been an illusion from thin air.

This is not a premise; it is an observable fact.

An exercise: Focus intently on physical sensation; then notice how, as you shift your focus away from sensation to thought, the commentary returns. LOOK at how mind tells "you" what is happening in your world. Switch from direct experiencing to thinking and back. LOOK!!!!

everything Ian has ever done to effort himself into an idea of a self has been a waste of energy.

Ian has never "done" anything; everything in Ian's memory is simply happening NOW in this moment. Check it!! There is never a waste of energy in Life (check the laws of thermodynamics); all that Ian remembers "doing" has led to this moment of seeing, now.

laugh and cry.

Good response to the Cosmic Joke!

what a waste of energy has gone on through supposed history called Ians life...oh well. and then again, freedom is letting even that story go too.

No waste; and how free-ing to SEE that the supposed history is just a story, too.

What is this is all the truth of it, whats left, just living.

Yes. Tell me when the Reality of this is perfectly clear.

love
Nona

[Jigme]

Hi Nona,
not sure what to say, am looking, well as clearly as feels possible, certainly less caught in I story, and more relaxed and open looking at life and living, and intently at physical sensations too as you suggest, and then notice the thoughts and the commentary in particular. get a sense of yes at times there is a feeling of I to that commentary, and that is just maybe a illusion and need not be taken seriously as evidence in any way of a me. But, to be honest there is a wall that seems to be met here, in language and thoughts i'd...see me again.. that there's something unwilling to let go of that sense, felt sense, pretend sense of a me, the commentary is believed as commentator therefore me. cant say that is cracked, i could say things to try and fake that, pretend that i am no longer I-ying, but seems nonsense to claim that, when I-ness still lingers. However, the exploration seems useful in that it shows me levels of clinging to I story, that i hadn't expected. That such i commentary suggests to me...that i can be found in commentator for instance. to notice the difference between a thought and a genuine experience, to notice the I in thoughts more clearly, to be prepared to shine a light on the matter...all thsi is good, but Reality doesnt seem to be really and truley and perfectly clear here.
also a question, when i look at physical experiences and feel it as deeply as possible, and intently, its vivid, yet i cant say that a background hum of thoughts isn't there...am i looking for a thoughtless experience , or is a hum to be expected.only when thoughts are paid attention to does the commentary start up, does the sense of a me seem attractive and pulling...but a general continuous hum of thoughts seems always there, or maybe so constant feels as good as always there....feel i need to clarify what it can be expected might be there within direct experience, otherwise maybe something is being missed or confused.

any help and clarification, advise or pointing s welcome
Ian
x

[nonaparry]

Hi Ian!

only when thoughts are paid attention to does the commentary start up

Keep noticing this. What you focus on is what gets experienced. Period. Thoughts are not noticed when we are very focused on something other than thoughts. Why? Because our focus is not on them.

Check it!! Until I ask you now to focus on your feet, were you honestly aware of them?? Until you focus on them, are you actually aware of your thoughts? Where do thoughts come from? Notice that.

Notice when you are NOT thinking.
Are you thinking when you sneeze? When you orgasm? Before and after, perhaps; after all, thinking is habitual. But while the super-intense experience is happening, is there "a general continuous hum of thoughts"?
Don't Think about this! LOOK with the eyes in your head; look at Ian living daily life and notice that there really are times when he is not thinking.

a general continuous hum of thoughts seems always there, or maybe so constant feels as good as always there

Seems! It seems always there. But is it?? Check it! Mind fills in the holes in our experiences with thought, after the fact, making the commentary seem smooth and uninterrupted. But is it? This is what I'm asking you to notice.
Watch how you do an action, and instants after the fact the commentary tells you what you are experiencing. But you're not. You experienced it nanoseconds ago!
Feet carry you to the kitchen and THEN mind says "I'm going to the kitchen." Hands washing dishes in hot soapy water happens instants BEFORE the commentary "I am washing dishes. This water is hot and soapy."

And LOOK! Is the commentator washing dishes?? Is he? If he is, please send him to my place!


Did you ever pretend that something was happening? Imagine what it would be like receiving something you thought you wanted, or pretend you were somewhere other than where you were physically in the moment? The commentary during pretense was telling you the story just as you would have liked it to happen. This commentary could even be edited if it wasn't quite perfect. We call it daydreaming or pretending when we do it on purpose. It's a story you are telling yourself.
The commentary that you are not aware you are making up is equally a story. The commentary isn't REAL. It's thoughts. It's Editable. It's thoughts strung together, ABOUT something you are focused on. It isn't you. It is creating your perception for you as experience is happening. But it isn't a 'you'.


*****Please be aware that a "sense of self" doesn't go away! And that's a good thing!
SENSE of self is what allows Ian and Nona and all the other expressions of the One to function in society, to avoid walking off cliffs, to interact and communicate.
We're not looking to eradicate sense of self. We are only looking to SEE that 'self' is merely a thought, a concept, a label that we use in speech, and nothing more than that. There is no self in reality.

much love,
Nona

[Jigme]

Hi Nona,

Notice when you are NOT thinking.
Are you thinking when you sneeze? When you orgasm? Before and after, perhaps; after all, thinking is habitual. But while the super-intense experience is happening, is there "a general continuous hum of thoughts"?
Don't Think about this! LOOK with the eyes in your head; look at Ian living daily life and notice that there really are times when he is not thinking.
Answer....There are times when Ian is not thinking, there are times when there is no commentary at all on whats happening. Just perception of whats occurring continues.

Don't know what else to add , the commentary proves nothing and adds nothing real to experience, or useful other than what can be useful in labeling and determining and even if needed planning. yes it seems i have made the commentary into a commentator and believed that story for a long time, but that a bit shaken apart now, today, this moment as writing this and pushing keys and looking at flickering screen and words that arise from somewhere, who is to say where really?, i could think (probably) about where they may have come from, but why bother, who cares, that's all just words on top trying to make sense, and then oh ho that commentator can have a little trip out , but cant be bothered with all that tonight now.
last night and early morning seems perhaps significant as there's been not much of confused struggle mind popping in and going but but, not much at all , very little today at all, and when it does blip in it/they drops off quick, However need to let this sit and idle away some hours in just being, with no need to scrutinize, but to test it over time maybe....why'd that get said, don't know?...

practicality notice...i am away for few days, will have laptop, so will try to keep in touch...maybe some further questioning from you could be useful,... hints that something has dropped away about self view hooking, but also wary and skeptical, as have felt been seen before, feels useful though this little wary scrutiny, sometimes it seems 'I' isnt believed no more no way.

can say no more tonight/ at present anyway
Nona

love
Ian
x