Seeking the end of Seeking; Wanting the end of Wanting

[Ronaldo]

Your answers about the thoughts are coming from thinking, not from looking, you're analyzing, trying to get it right rather than just looking at the simple hard evidence.

What do I mean by that?

Just as an example, say I ask you what color socks you wear, you can either:
1. try to remember "what did I put on this morning...." and say "blue"
2. look and say "blue".

So no question marks because it's not a guess, it's direct, clear evidence, noticing what happens and not taking what thoughts explain as evidence, because thoughts tell stories.
Wait in silence and watch like a hawk - what is going to be your next thought? Can you know that?
Are you making that thought appear? How??

Please do this carefully, many times, watch what happens, watch what is real and what is story.
Also avoid quoting the whole thing, it's hard to read, quote each question and answer, or use bold if you prefer:

Can you predict your next thought?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes? (why are you guessing? do it!)
Can you stop having thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?

[Ronaldo]

I wanted to add something. Your'e definitely on the right track, but if you guess you're thinking about it, trying to make sense of it, and if I confirm it, it means you haven't clearly seen it, and then you're going to take my word for it, and we achieved absolutely nothing. This is all about you having a clear experience.
If you're not sure, you can say so and I'll try to give you more questions, but please do the looking, take your time and be thorough, no guessing.

Thank you :)
Ron

[SeekerJ]

what is going to be your next thought? I don't know
Can you know that? no
Are you making that thought appear? How?? No. I just had a thought about pizza for dinner. It just appeared, stayed for a moment and then left. There was no 'I' involved at all in its creation, staying or leaving .

Can you predict your next thought? I can guess but then this guess is just a thought.
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)? Through the creation of a thought.
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to? From Nowhere to nowhere (or at least a place I don't know)
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes? (why are you guessing? do it!) Yes i did it. I thought I will only have pleasant thoughts for the next minute. Then only pleasant thoughts and feelings arose. It felt relaxing.
Can you stop having thoughts? Yes I did it. I thought I will stop having thoughts for a minute by relaxing my mind and dissolving my attention. Then I felt no thoughts but sunk down into a deep darkness. (I may still have had thoughts but I was not aware of having any).
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Yes but its quite difficult. I did it above.
Can you stop a thought in the middle? Yes, I thought about pizza again for dinner and then stopped the momentum of thought and it left.

[Ronaldo]

Q: what is going to be your next thought?
A: I don't know

Right! You have no clue what your next thought will be, if you think you do, it's just the next thought claiming it knew. Sometimes that thought you couldn't predict says "the next thought will be about apple" and now you think you know your next thought - apple. Is that your experience? Do it and verify for yourself.

Q: Are you making that thought appear? How??
A: No. I just had a thought about pizza for dinner. It just appeared, stayed for a moment
and then left.

Right! You're not making a thought appear anymore than you make a sound appear. The thought appears and disappears.

Q: Can you predict your next thought?
A: I can guess but then this guess is just a thought.

Hmmm, you're waiting for a thought, you have no idea what it will be! Then a thought comes
and says "my next thought will be about X" and wow! you guessed the next thought. See how you do not know your next thought? Yes, often the next thought will seem related or about the same subject, but then it's about pizza again and did you know that would be coming?

Q: How do you make a thought appear?
A: Through the creation of a thought.

You create the thought? You have that power to create a thought? Do you also create the sensations in your hands? The image of the screen? I'm talking about an actual active creation of something by willing it. Are you thinking or is it more correct to say you're being thought?

Q: where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
A: From Nowhere to nowhere

Right

So far that was good, now you start either believing the thoughts, or worse, not noticing that they are thoughts and confusing them for reality. And also contradicting what you've seen before.

Q: Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes? (why are you guessing? do it!)
A: Yes i did it. I thought I will only have pleasant thoughts for the next minute. Then only pleasant thoughts and feelings arose. It felt relaxing.

Put an alarm for 5 minutes and do it again please. The task is to have pleasant thoughts, not a single stressful, not a single negative, not about something you have to do or about an itch or an annoying sound - only pleasant thoughts.

Q: Can you stop having thoughts?
A: Yes I did it. I thought I will stop having thoughts for a minute by relaxing my mind and dissolving my attention. Then I felt no thoughts but sunk down into a deep darkness. (I may still have had thoughts but I was not aware of having any).

It's possible that you experience less thoughts than some, but stopping having thoughts means you are simply not noticing them. Please set that timer again, 10 minutes. The first thought that comes, you have to reset it for 10 minutes again. If you fall asleep, 10 more :). To remind you, thoughts are mental images, mental sounds (e.g. "yes, I'm not having thoughts!"), tags: a bird, eyes, itch. Anytime you identify something like "sound is from the fridge" it's a thought.
Can you really have no thoughts for 10 minutes?


Is there such a thing as a thought you didn't notice?
Is there such thing as a sight you didn't see?
You definitely saw sights and had thoughts, you just forgot the details or the entire thing.
It's easy to test, look around you - observe it, then close your eyes and see how much of that detail you have left.

Q: Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
A: Yes but its quite difficult. I did it above.

Put that timer again, 2 minutes.
Don't have a thought about a white horse.
Again, the thought can be an image of that white horse, a super fast thought - "horse", catch it before it's gone. Either you fail or you aren't noticing.

Q: Can you stop a thought in the middle?
A: Yes, I thought about pizza again for dinner and then stopped the momentum of thought and it left.

No, the thought ended and maybe it didn't come back, but did it stop in the middle? "Pizza" came and left, you had nothing to do with it.


Please answer my questions and don't agree with anything you don't see with AE.
Thoughts are behind the self illusion, they need to be super clear or you'll not see through them. I will give you a spoiler, you have zero, big 0, absolute no control over thoughts, only the illusion of control, only thoughts telling you you did it. look out for that.

[SeekerJ]

Are you thinking or is it more correct to say you're being thought? It seems to correct to say that I have a thought that I will think X, so I guess the creation of the thought is a thought. So there is no 'I' creating thoughts but thoughts creating or leading more thoughts.

Put an alarm for 5 minutes and do it again please. The task is to have pleasant thoughts, not a single stressful, not a single negative, not about something you have to do or about an itch or an annoying sound - only pleasant thoughts. I could only do this for maybe a minute then I had no control of what I thought.

Can you really have no thoughts for 10 minutes? No. I had no thoughts for about a minute. Then thoughts happened without my wanting. So I have very little control about my thought process and content but I do have some direction, as in to direct my mind empty and then I have less thoughts (but this direction is also a thought, intention or mental activity)

I thought of a white horse straight away. It was impossible not to think of a horse after the idea was suggested and planted.

but did it stop in the middle? The thought flow was interrupted by either another thought or some type of mental activity/ intention in which the my mind when blank.

Thanks for your help.
I feel this step is very important and may take some more time to fully reveal itself to me by direct experience, but I feel I am on the right track.
Thanks

[Ronaldo]

Hi SeekerJ,
You're welcome 😌

I have a thought that I will think X, so I guess the creation of the thought is a thought. So there is no 'I' creating thoughts but thoughts creating or leading more thoughts.

You're over complicating it, it's simple.
Thought: "I'm going to have a thought"
Thought: "bla bla"
Thought: "I created a thought bla bla"
Was any of these 3 thoughts something you created? Had control over?
Where in this sequence did YOU do anything, or control anything?
And how can a thought create anything? Sure there are thoughts about thoughts, and thoughts that seem to chatter about the same topic, but where is the evidence that a thought creates another thought? Can a sound create another sound?
You have to see thought this, you're simply taking the thought explanation for reality and not noticing that there is nothing you're actively doing here.

I do have some direction, as in to direct my mind empty and then I have less thoughts (but this direction is also a thought, intention or mental activity)

You have no control over thought, but you have some ability to direct your mind?
Please describe the process for me, how do you direct your mind? Let me try:
Thought: "I'm going to not think for a bit, or have less thoughts"
[did you create or decide to create this thought, or did it appear?]
Let's say that you are doing that and it does seems quieter than usual. Is that always the case?
Isn't a bit like trying to fall asleep? You lay down, and do nothing, sleep may come and sleep may wonder, thoughts may come and thoughts may subside a bit. Where is the control in any of this?

Try something else:
Sit for a bit and just notice how attention seems to shift and move between sights, sounds, thoughts, sensation. Notice how the attention goes to a thought, drops to a sound, to a sight, back to a thought about the sound or the site and on and one. Notice how thought will claim control "I'm listening", "I'm thinking about this because it is interesting", but what is actually happening? Isn't the attention shifting all by itself? Aren't sights, sounds, senses AND thoughts appearing when they do, without direction only the illusion of direction? Look again and again.

Not seeing this yet?
Here is another look at thoughts and control:

Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick a country
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "USA" (or whatever).
Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?


2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say England and Germany and Spain came up, but for some reason Pakistan didn't.
was that limited group of countries selected by you?
did you decide not to include Pakistan?

3. a new choice was made, say England, and now another thought offers an explanation "I love English Earl Grey tea"

Did you observe free choice made?
Did you observe an actual thinking process?
Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

You can do it again and again.

[SeekerJ]

Was any of these 3 thoughts something you created? Had control over? Where in this sequence did YOU do anything, or control anything

What do you mean when you refer to me?

Please describe the process for me, how do you direct your mind?

You have thought 'I will have a blank mind'. Then you have a 'blank mind'. Did the thought or you or something else direct your mind to this empty space? It could be nothing?

Where is the control in any of this?

Who is in control?

Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?

What do you mean by did I choose this? If I am only thoughts then there is no I?

Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

Who is I?

[SeekerJ]

In the example I choose the country and then changed the answer, but who am I who is able to choose the country - something above my thoughts?

[Ronaldo]

There is no "me", there are only thought about "me".

The sentence "Where in this sequence did YOU do anything, or control anything" is not asked by a person and answered by another person, it only seems that way. We're not doing philosophy and from your answers what I see is going deep into thoughts trying to grasp, rather than going deep into looking at the simplicity of things. But I will try to help by answering your points below:

R: Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?

S: What do you mean by did I choose this? If I am only thoughts then there is no I?

Who said you were thoughts? There is no you, there are thoughts, sensations, sights etc. Everything is just happening,
The sentence would be more correct as "was the selection of the country a choice process, or it just came?
Thoughts arise and fall to nobody, to no one. So did "you" choose a country? No, but it's not because there is an idea of no you, it's because from direct experience, there is no evidence or sign of a choice being made, do you see that?

R: Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

S: Who is I?

Again, the question contains an assumed "I" because that's how it appears, and how sentences are made, don't go into this thought process, stay focused on the experience and evidence.

Please stay focused and answer the questions.
Is there fear of losing control? No worries, there is already no "me", there has never been one and yet everything functions perfectly ok.

[Ronaldo]

Hi SeekerJ,
What's happening? Talk to me.
Is there fear or frustration?
Anything about the pointers isn't clear?

Often, when the recognition start to set that the thoughts aren't in any way something controlled and not known before they simply show up - there is fear, and more thoughts about rejecting the idea. Either there is a you that has control or there isn't such a thing. An agreement with this statement changes nothing at al, it is already exactly as it is with or without 'your' consent.

We keep using terms like me/I and you, we refer to the appearance of the separate you and me, we cannot pretend it's not an appearance and speak in some aloof way. Everything continues whether or not it's seen to be true or false, including the appearance of a body/self who does and thinks, likes and dislikes.

I'd like to hear your answers, the use of I and you in these questions aren't pointers, just common speech.

Regards
Ron

[SeekerJ]

Hi Ron,

The sentence would be more correct as "was the selection of the country a choice process, or it just came? It felt like a process, but that process was a thought.

Is there fear of losing control? Is there fear or frustration? I don't know. Fear of loss of self or relief of a loss of my ego or frustration that I can't see the illusion yet, or maybe all of them. It feels it will take more time to realize this reality as opposed to just accepting it.

Anything about the pointers isn't clear? The process seems clear, internally there is resistance I guess.

Thanks

[Ronaldo]

Accepting something is adopting yet another belief, this time the belief is that there is no self. A lot of seekers do just that, they get used to an idea and adopt it. So I don't recommend this path, it's not what you came here for.

You can't think your way into this (or out of this), so my recommendation is keep noticing what is imagination (all thought content) and what is actual, the sense perceptions. The realization will come if you spend the time looking at the thoughts and not engaged in the thought themselves.

If you need a break, take a few days or even a couple of weeks. Then try the exercise looking at thoughts again and answer them from direct experience.

Please don't despair, it's very common to get very frustrated during seeking, thought "likes" to solve problems and come up with answers, but it's the thoughts that prevents the clear seeing.

[SeekerJ]

Ok, thanks a lot for the guidance.

The realization will come if you spend the time looking at the thoughts and not engaged in the thought themselves.

I often experience this fleeting realization when I meditate. The realization is that my mind made sense of self is just a handy concept my mind created from my senses and that there is a presence of something deeper than my thoughts and feelings. But when I come out of meditation I quickly lose sight of this realization as I get sucked back into my mind made self and problems. If I continue to strengthen this realization during my meditations then I hope to bring this realization (and the other benefits of mediation) into my daily life. I understand doing this will achieve what we aim to achieve here.

(P.s. I wanted to use many question marks above but I resisted haha).

Thanks

[Ronaldo]

You're welcome :)

Perhaps it's a matter of opinion, but personally I found meditation less effective than looking. A well directed question and looking is far more revealing than letting the mind wonder aimlessly so to speak. What I mean by that is rather than sitting for an hour and going in and out of stories and focusing on body sensations you instead turn routine mundane actions into mini meditations:

- Brushing your teeth, pay close attention to each step, the sensations, the smells, the tastes, catch the thoughts turning everything into concepts, tagging.

- drinking water, coffee - feel the weight of the cup, look closely at the cup, the liquid, try to really see what it is without thought, without tags. Smells, tastes, sounds... try it on everything you do and mostly on things you do routinely, so they become habits rather than chores or insignificant things.

When you do meditate, notice something interesting:
You probably spend time scanning the body, feeling the hands, the blood in your veins pulsating, but notice, what tells you these are your hands? What tells you it's blood being pumped? Notice the thoughts that tag the sensations and notice the raw sensations that are just there without any "me" involved at all. Isn't that just a thought?

Are there sensations that you associate with the self? That seem to be "me"? Check for yourself what they are, are they really self, or without the tags and thoughts, perhaps they are just sensations?

[SeekerJ]

OK, that's good advice.

If its Ok, I think I should spend the next week or so following your advice and then report back on my findings?

Thanks.