Innermost

[gracie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that who I think I am is made of thoughts a nd beliefs. These constantly shift and do not seem real.

What are you looking for at LU?
To find the true self beyond the the thought illusion. I want to re-examine my beliefs that keep me bound and suffering.
I want to see and experience life without these bounds . I want to feel connected to a guide that knows these things .

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be guided into understanding For once and for all that my thoughts and beliefs are not real. I want to see through the the guide what Is real.
I expect some compassion from the guide and clarity on their part.
Patience would be nice. I went through the LU course in 2012. I don’t think I actually broke through the gate I know about the gate, I know Lisa personally bless her soul. But still I am not living in the reality of who I really am and I expect in the guide and then the conversation a true and honest exchange that can lead me to knowing who I really am

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I went through the LU course in 2012. I don’t think I actually broke through the gate I know about the gate, I know Lisa personally bless her soul. But still I am not living in the reality of who I really am and I expect in the guide and then the conversation a true and honest exchange that can lead me to knowing who I really am

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realization, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realize that there is no self, what do you expect that this realization should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,
Thank you for responding,
Yes I will agree to respond every day or let you know if I need more time.
You asked
What do I expect from the realization of no self? Freedom. Freedom from being glued to thoughts and beliefs that appear to be causing a lot of suffering. I feel so responsible for everything so that oppression would vanish.

What would it look like? I think at first there is a profound confusion. A beautiful instability that leads to a deep clarity. There is relief much relief. Relief from repetitive fear.
The benefits could be a naturalness comes that has been lost. it feels like a cozy room. There seems to be a sense of the absurd that is funny. Laughter, safety. A life worth staying in and true help for others just by this realization. That would be joyful more than that it would have a deep sense of everything is actually ok.

What would stay the same? Everything will look and act the same . The patterns, body ,mind and story remain the same. Perhaps there could be a blip that would give the whole illusion away. That would be so great but I’m not counting on that.

What do I not want to happen? I have gone thru LU before. I got it ...but then I didn’t get it. I got it in my head and briefly experience. It seems unreachable for me somehow now.
So what I do not want to have happen is for that to happen again. I truly want to get this and I feel like maybe I’m trying to hard? Or that I just have never ever going to get it. I don’t want that to happen.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Vivien]

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

Freedom. Freedom from being glued to thoughts and beliefs that appear to be causing a lot of suffering. I feel so responsible for everything so that oppression would vanish.

Let’s look at this more closely. The one that wants freedom, that is the separate self. Freedom doesn’t come from standing apart from thoughts (thus being free from them), but from seeing that thoughts don’t happen to anyone. The one that wants to be free from thoughts is just a thought, an illusion. But we will look at this deeply.

I feel so responsible for everything so that oppression would vanish.

Freedom is not about not feeling being responsible for things, rather to see that there is no one at the core to be responsible for anything. Do you the big difference? As long as you want to be free, you are not looking at the most important thing… that there is no self to be free.

Relief from repetitive fear

.
When there is fear or suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.

Laughter, safety. A life worth staying

Yes, there could be laughter (or not), but safety for who? For the illusionary self?
And life worth staying for who? This desire is based on the assumption that someone living life, or that life is happening to someone. But what if this is not the case? What if there is only life, but not a liver of life?

That would be joyful more than that it would have a deep sense of everything is actually ok.

Realisation of ‘no inherent self’ does not automatically bring about constant peace and contentment, or a change in the seeming person. This exploration has got nothing to do with that. It is simply about realising that the self who suffers and believes they are in control of life, doesn’t exist. Decades of beliefs and conditioning that goes with those years, won’t disappear overnight. Realisation of 'no self' may happen, but then the undoing of the compilation of the self that seemingly suffers starts to happen, and this undoing takes time. What this means is that peace and contentment will be sporadic…they will come and go, as will clarity. It takes time for shifts to integrate.

There will be times of clarity and many times of uncertainty, confusion and doubt. This is all normal, but constant peace and contentment when realisation happens…does not happen. It will take time, and no one knows how long that is, it is different for everyone.

I have gone thru LU before. I got it ...but then I didn’t get it. I got it in my head and briefly experience. It seems unreachable for me somehow now.

We are going to look together, until no doubt is left. So please don’t worry about this :)

You have several expectation, but the thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

The reason for those questions were to find out what expectations you have how it would be like or feel like when the separate self is seen through. Many have the idea that it’s a special state of bliss, happiness, peace and constant ease; and a happy state has to be present as evidence of having had the realization. But the realization is often quite subtle, and it can be hidden by expectations. When there is any sort of expectation, there is a comparison between the preconceived ideas of what it should be like and what is seen, with the conclusion “This not IT”.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,
Please call me Gracie.
Here are some things that come up for me as I contemplate your letter.
I can see that at this point almost everything is an expectation for me. I am surrounded and infused by this. It does not feel comfortable and it is good to look through the perspective of no self.
‘ thoughts don’t happen to anyone” I tend to get stuck here and then can do a mental a flip and see that everything is arising on a screen of consciousness. The thing is I keep forgetting this and go back into the attachment to a story that feels totally important at the time. An ongoing story that holds power over this Not Self.
It feels habitual . “ no one is responsible” I like that very much and yet I am convinced I have control and it just may, no , for sure am responsible for what ever it is. Is this the addiction?

The wound paragraph you wrote. I would like to know more about that. How does this not relate directly to the problem ? How are the wounds not encapsulated in the personality of the self? Isnt the self basically born from elements of wounds and the stimuli following that? Thus causing patterns that repeat? Please tell me more!

Yes it is easy to see now that safety is just a thought. It is a longing of the self and I can feel compassion about this.

“Only life not a liver” does put one as a spectator , witness, awareness watching. Is this a subtle and tricky self? Is that the thing that is too close to the false self ? The illusion becomes a mirage for me.


The illusion of me , a cardboard character that has taken over. It is holy or thinks it is. Having no real imagination it is wound up in satisfying its needs and desires. Now I am a feeling numb.
This conclusion stemming from the realization hidden by expectation of “this is not it” hits at the heart of my problem here. And makes me numb. This numb place is paralyzing to the clarity that I see beyond it. A panic sets in . I will never get this! then more numbness and the separate self is now happy to stay in control. It’s easier that way.
I agree, life is never ever what one imagines it to be but that imagining and dismissed seem to have an effect on things or is just simply random?

Yes Vivian, I will make much effort in moving to immediate experience. Immediate experience: all sensations plus thought. Right? Are these sensations , experience things or consciousness? Meaning they arise in consciousness and fall as well.
There is resistance as you can see woven through this for me.
Yes, I am ready to start the investigation!
I love that you said “we will look together and not to worry” :)
Thank you

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

It feels habitual . “ no one is responsible” I like that very much and yet I am convinced I have control and it just may, no , for sure am responsible for what ever it is. Is this the addiction?

Loosely speaking we can say that, but addiction implies a person who is addicted. There is no person at the core being addicted. There are only repetitive patterns playing out in loops.

The wound paragraph you wrote. I would like to know more about that. How does this not relate directly to the problem ? How are the wounds not encapsulated in the personality of the self? Isnt the self basically born from elements of wounds and the stimuli following that? Thus causing patterns that repeat? Please tell me more!

An emotional wound is nothing else but a thinking-feeling-behaving pattern, a conditioning.

I cannot really tell more, since that would be just a speculation on my part. The reason I wrote about it to help you to see that your expectations of all conditionings to fall away in an instant, is not really realistic.

“Only life not a liver” does put one as a spectator , witness, awareness watching. Is this a subtle and tricky self?

Yes, this could be the separate self in disguise :) we will look at this.

Are these sensations , experience things or consciousness? Meaning they arise in consciousness and fall as well.

I’m not here to give answers, sorry :) and that I’m mean, but because if I give you answers you can only accept them intellectually, and make them to a new belief. So that would be a dead end. Rather, I will give you questions to investigate the beliefs you already have.

I will make much effort in moving to immediate experience. Immediate experience: all sensations plus thought. Right?

Let’s look into this.

We are only ever going to look at our immediate experience.
So we are going to look at what is here now.

Let’s look at what looking is.
1. Looking can only ever happen here and now. Right now, in this very moment. It’s never about a remembered memory. It’s never a just thinking, but looking at directly what is actually (literally) here now.

2. Looking is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation in the present moment, right now.


3. Also, we can notice the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Just simply noticing thoughts as phenomena as they appear. This is how we look at thoughts.

4. However, focusing on what thought is saying, what it’s about, what the content is, is NOT looking. Although, this is what we are the most familiar with. We are predominantly focusing on the thought content, the story it tells, instead of noticing it just as an appearing phenomenon.


5. The content of a thought is an IMAGINED EXPERIENCE. It’s not a real experience, it’s just a mental representation of it.

6. Any theory, interpretation, speculation, theory, philosophy are contents of thoughts, in short, just intellectualization. Intellectualization can only ever result in gaining more theoretical knowledge, but it cannot lead to a first-hand experiential recognition.


7. Looking is a shift from focusing on thoughts to noticing the direct experience of the 5 senses and the arising of thoughts in this very moment.

Make sure that this is very clear, since this will the bases of our inquiry. If you have any doubts or questions about this, just let me know.

Sit for about 10-15 minutes and just notice:
What is actually here?
1. Colours and shapes
2. Sounds
3. Tastes
4. Smells
5. Sensations (coming from touching something, or noticing the bodily sensations or feelings that are present in the body).
6. Thoughts. A thought can appear as a pictorial/visual thought, like imagining an apple. It can appear as an auditory / verbal thought, like the word ‘apple’. Auditory thoughts can appear as a voice or a tune of a music, or an imagined sound of a car or a person.
Most of the time, thoughts tell a story, often accompanied by a ‘mental movie’ with a ‘soundtrack’ of the story :)

Could you please give examples of each of these points?

Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?

Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?

Please be very thorough with this, since this is the base of our investigation to see what is here now, and what is just a thought content, a story.

Vivien

[gracie]

Hello Vivian,

I did this on and off all day.
It was good. I would like to do this for several days. It felt like meditations. This was a beginning.I kept remembering to do it.

1. Colours and shapes

Visually things look vivid and as I watched thoughts constantly came and went as they pleased. Sometimes they brought up emotions. The colors if not labeled are different. . I am not sure what to make of it. It’s hard to describe. There are so many an overwhelming variety. Then looking a little closer there are lights and darks , shapes. I don’t. Know what to make of this.
It was relaxing to let go andjust to notice them.

2.

Sounds

Thee seemed sort or harsh or other qualities of almost a touch like feeling.
Listening to a car pass the sound disappearing was pleasurable.

3. Tastes

Salt I tasted salt. Different kinds of salt . This involved labeling but then I was finally able to taste the differences and the textures of the different salts. In the end similar to sound and smell sensations as well.

4. Smells

that felt physical in the back of the nose there were sensations. Not exactly just a knowing .a quality is present and awareness of that quality.

5. Sensations

Not pleasant as I did not feel well today. But the touching part was interesting. Feeling the floor quality under my feet, face on a pillow. I started Searching for things to touch.

6. Thoughts

There were many visual thoughts telling story. A lot of looking ahead but I was able to realize it was just a thought but then it took over again and again and they were constantly arriving.
I was able to think some thoughts and accept them for exactly what a they thought. No judgment of them.

Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?

I am not sure. There might be a watcher and there seems like an empty space that all these things are being in. It is not a a feeling or a thought and is fleeting .

Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?

Yes, I think so. This empty space. Am I making this up? It seems real .it’s like a giant space where all these things are happening.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Yes, I think so. This empty space. Am I making this up? It seems real .it’s like a giant space where all these things are happening.

Isn’t this giant space a mental image?
Look very closely…. Don’t you visualize a giant space as things appear in them?

It’s very common that we mistake our visual thoughts (imagination) to actuality. It’s much more common than one would think. This is how we mistake our thoughts for reality.

Do you notice that thoughts can appear both as verbal thoughts like the thought ‘giant space’, and as mental images (like visually imagining a giant space’?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,

I

sn’t this giant space a mental image?
Look very closely…. Don’t you visualize a giant space as things appear in them?

Yes it is a mental image but it is also something else. I can visualize a giant space with things but also can sense the truth of it.

It is only at this time a sense, a kind of knowing. Looking at things very closely or better yet the hearing Of sounds I can see there is no sound there is no ear even but there’s consciousness happening.That consciousness does not appear to be anything of the senses or thoughts but I’m not absolutely sure it just seems that way to me. And I can only find this when I let go of the thoughts about these things. Usually I am believing there is an ear hearing sounds.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Yes, there is experience and experience is known, there is the knowing of it.
But this knowing or awaring, is it a thing?
Does it have any substance?

The mind tries to objectify anything, including the knowing of experience. So this knowing get pictured into a giant space to make it into a thing. This is just a trick. Can you see that?

And I can only find this when I let go of the thoughts about these things. Usually I am believing there is an ear hearing sounds.

Exactly. And your everyday reality is the test for our seeing. So whatever appears in your everyday life, that is ‘your truth’ in that moment.

We looked at that our experience comprises of those 6 aspects (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation + the knowing the presence of a thought).

Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

Please spend a whole day investigating this.

Vivien

[gracie]

Vivian,

Keeping this discovery in mind, what is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life? I don’t mean what you intellectual understand and reason what you are, but rather what is it that you perceived yourself to be experientially in the mist of ordinary life?

Vivian, I have no idea.
My perception of myself runs everywhere and the back again. I do know I a not what I think I am I may not know what I feel. It’s constantly changing sensations and ideas. I just don’t know
I may need a few more days for this.

[Vivien]

All right, please spend more time with this. Be thorough, but playful :)

[gracie]

Ok I have looked in to this as much as I could
Perception of my self in everydayness.
There is no one thing. It constantly changes although there is an awareness of all the changing sensations, and the experience of that remains the same
. I am not sure about that awareness except that it is different that of direct experience. It is aware of the experiences are happening. Perhaps it is a *no one”. The Gracie that is not there.
It has no thoughts or feelings it just is there aware of the experience of things that are throughly believed to be happening to me, by me. That me that can’t really be found. .yet I totally believe them when on automatic.

But this knowing or awaring, is it a thing?
Does it have any substance?

No. It is not a thing at all. It does not have substance.

I

t’s very common that we mistake our visual thoughts (imagination) to actuality. It’s much more common than one would think. This is how we mistake our thoughts for reality.

I do get this as a thought. Talking about indicates thought but the experience of it is not a think or a thing although when thinking about that it becomes tricky.

That’s the trick . Thought try’s to claim it but that is just a thought. Yet another thing that awareness is aware of.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Thank you for your replies.

Now, we have to look at the difference between experience and the thought narration ABOUT experience. Seeing this clearly is essential.

Generally speaking, we can say that there are two distinct world or realms:

- the realm of direct experience,
- and the world of thoughts and ideas ABOUT experience.

But we, most of the time, are confused by the two, unknowingly mixing them, imagining that experience is what we THINK it is.

Mistaking conceptual rendering of reality FOR reality is the source of human suffering, and also the source of the belief in being a separate self.

So let’s start to looking into this.

Sit somewhere alone for about 15-30 minutes and just simply feel into the experience what we call ‘breathing’.

Just notice all that is present; the incredibly rich array of experience that constitutes what we call ‘the breath’.

Now, notice whatever concepts, thoughts, interpretations are generated in the mind ABOUT the experience of breathing (what it is, what are its qualities, how it works, what it’s for, etc. – all the description and explanation about it).

Notice all the labels and categories applied to it (like cold, warm, shallow, superficial, depth, quick, slow, stressful, peaceful, etc.) – including the names we give to the experience (like the name/label ‘breathing’).

What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?

And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?

As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?

Just notice, the rich array of experience appears independently of its thought based description, just as the description doesn’t interfere with the experience itself.

Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?

The experience and the thought story ABOUT it existing parallel, side by side, without meddling with each other.

Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?

Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?

Can thoughts ever fully convey what the experience of breathing is?

Please experiment with this several times before replying. From now on, please spend a whole day with each post, looking at the same thing again and again. It’s all about repeated investigation of your experience in any given moment.

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian
I would like to respond 3 days if that is ok ? As I ha been responding more as you asked.

Let me think about this please. I appreciate your questions so much.