Truthseeking

[warissem]

Hi Paul

This is really hard to answer honestly Warissem. The thoughts just arise in consciousness. In my direct experience there’s no sign of a thinker. There is no “author” of the thoughts

Yes

but would it be correct to say there is a receiver of them?

Is there really ? Look.

Warissem

[Efkap]

Is there really ? Look.

No. After further investigation the receiver is also a thought.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Yes there is no thinker and no receiver of thoughts outside of thoughts. Now, we'll investigate about decision and control through this exercise :

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Warissem

[Efkap]

How is the movement controlled?

I have no idea.

Does a thought control it?

No, but there are really strong thoughts that say “I’m doing it” or “if you’re not who is?” Im trying to allow them to be but it’s difficult.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, it’s only thoughts trying to take responsibility

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don’t know

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

This is really hard. The thoughts claiming responsibility are loud but there doesn’t seem to be one that makes the decision. I can’t find one.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don’t know. Put out my dominant right hand naturally. There was no decision process.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No I can’t and it feels a bit uncomfortable.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Great observations.

No I can’t and it feels a bit uncomfortable.

"uncomfortable" : is it a sensation in the body ? or is it just a thought ?

Let's do an exercise about choice :

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Warissem

[Efkap]

Apologies Warissem, I haven’t completed this task yet. Yesterday I was in a lot of pain with a stomach complaint. I’m still in bed now but I’m hoping I’ll feel better today. If so I will carry out the exercise and come back to you with my findings.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

I wish you a prompt recovery

Warissem

[Efkap]

Hi Warissem, apologies for the delay of my response. I have completed the exercise, I’ll now answer your questions.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities arose in consciousness like all the other thoughts.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No there was no choice in shutting down the selection thoughts (Which did occur) and I didn’t directly experience a choosing “function” my mind was still and the decision seemed to be made automatically, there was then a thought that said I’m making this choice.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Great observations. You have missed the two last questions.

Waiting for your answers.

Warissem

[Efkap]

can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

In my experience feelings do arise during choice making situations. They arise in tandem with thoughts or maybe as a result of thoughts but they cannot make a choice.

Investigating further it seems that sometimes, when a choice is seemingly being made, a feeling or an emotion arises and appears to shape the decision and then thoughts claim it as a reason for a particular outcome but no it is not in the nature of a feeling to choose.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Is there a chooser in any shape or form ?

This is an exercise for you :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Wariseem

[Efkap]

Hi Warissem, I have completed the exercise a few times and these are my findings.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, without thought there is no way of knowing how tall or what shape the body is, nor is there any way of determining its weight. There’s a subtle feeling of space/wholeness. It’s pleasant.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is a feeling of my clothes and also of pressure between the body and the chair but without the thought “I” or labelling anything it’s just a sensation which is impossible to separate from the “wholeness”

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

There is no inside or outside just the feeling of space.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

I don’t really know how to answer this. A receiver perhaps. A collection of senses which interfaces with the environment.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes closed and without thought, there is no body.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Do you agree that what is called a body is a bunch of sensations ?

When eyes are open there is seeing of colors ans shapes : can you unsee whar is seen ? Are you seeing or is seeing happening ?Is there a seer besides seeing ?

Do the same exercise to hearing, smelling, ...

Warissem

[Efkap]

Do you agree that what is called a body is a bunch of sensations ?

Yes I would totally agree with that.

When eyes are open there is seeing of colors ans shapes : can you unsee whar is seen ?

No, it is impossible to unsee.

Are you seeing or is seeing happening ?

Seeing is happening. Shapes, colours and objects are seen as labelling thoughts arise. This happens by itself.

Is there a seer besides seeing ?

No, there is just seeing. “I am seeing” is just another thought.

The same is true for the other senses. Hearing, smelling, it’s happening by itself. The idea that “I” am doing it only arises as a thought.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Good observations.

What do you feel when you read this : there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, it has never been.

Warissem