the gibberish blabber - in need of help

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

V: Where is this me-character you are talking about?

L: Here he is - typing the answers and having the exchange of answers and words from my computer to you - there is the me-character

What is that you are referring to? Are you talking the body?
Is the body = me-character?
Or the me is inside the body somewhere?

Please look closely, you have to go much deeper than just saying that he is here typing.
Tell me his exact location with millimeter or a quarter of inch precision.

If I send you a selfie, a live photo or video of myself would that count as showing it to you? Or I can book a ticket and fly from my country to yours and there it is - that is the way of me showing you the me-character in a literal sense

No that wouldn’t count. The body is NOT a self. The body is just the body.

You say: “MY body”. So there is supposedly something else that owns the body. Where is the owner?

was sitting down the whole day, lying down sometimes and I am staring and looking at the body from chest to feet. The me-character Lee is looking downwards watching what the hands will do, what the feet will do, what the legs will do, what the other body parts will do. That is how I know bodily-actions are being done by a me-character named Lee.

You are not looking, you are thinking. You wrote down your thoughts, or beliefs about it.

As I was walking, when I look straight and see the surroundings, there is no one there. But if I look down and walk while looking at my legs and feet, that is the me-character walking down the road. Where is the me-character? The one walking.
No. The body is walking. Not a me-character. You have to go deeper than this.
In terms of ''is there anything moving the body?'' I am the one moving it.

So if you say that “I am the one moving the body” then it’s impossible that I = body. The I must be something else than the body, if it has the ability to move it.

So where is this I exactly?
Where is it located? In head? In the arms? In the feet? In the lower back? At the top of the head?

I’m sending you a private message, please check your inbox.

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

What is that you are referring to? Are you talking the body?

That was what I was pertaining to. But then I realized. ''Me-character'' who invented that idea? Where did that originated? It seems as if the me-character is nothing but a conceptual overlay or a term attributed to something. So that made me see that I am attributing a concept to the body and naming it as a me-character

Is the body = me-character?

NO IT ISN'T. It is not and even if it is, I have no way of proving it except from ideas and thoughts that arises.

Or the me is inside the body somewhere?

I do not know since I cannot prove it. I will not be able to even if I ask someone to open up the body and find the me, there would be only intestines and organs inside the body but the me is not.

Please look closely, you have to go much deeper than just saying that he is here typing.
Tell me his exact location with millimeter or a quarter of inch precision.

This made me think... I was answering without properly investigating at all. I do have to look closely

You say: “MY body”. So there is supposedly something else that owns the body. Where is the owner?

There is a BELIEF that the body is ''mine'' but ownership is just a concept I used to believe in. BUT WITH DIRECT SEEING, I will never find the owner of this body. I can only answer based o ideas, thoughts and concepts but other than that, i am clueless as to who owns this body and where he, she, or it is.

So where is this I exactly?

Nowhere to be found using senses. Only speculated guesses I can give you but the exact, literal location, I have zero clue.

Where is it located? In head? In the arms? In the feet? In the lower back? At the top of the head?

Not in the arms, feet, back or even head. Nothing in the body

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

Now it’s important that you don’t make an intellectual conclusion that the I cannot be proven, so you just accept this as a new belief and stop looking. Rather, you have to look again and again, hundreds of times… seeing it afresh again and again. It’s the repeated looking and seeing it afresh what undoes the belief.

So that made me see that I am attributing a concept to the body and naming it as a me-character

You say “I am attributing a concept to the body.” – where is this I that is attributing a concept to the body?

How does this attribution happen? As a thought?

What is thinking that thought?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

You say “I am attributing a concept to the body.” – where is this I that is attributing a concept to the body?

I can tell you the entire day, I was looking at this question, and there is no way I can tell where this I is. No location, no concrete evidence as to where this me oR i is to be found.

How does this attribution happen? As a thought?

I am not sure. It is an idea or a belief that the i is the body and that is how the attribution happens. When you presented the guide questions, the perception shifts and investigation began as to ''where is this me or I?'' so it is a belief = thought or conceptual idea.

What is thinking that thought?
Initially, while looking at this question i came up with ''the body is thinking the thought''. But i have to look deeper in to this and see it more clearly and investigate. i just cannot yet. I need more time to see wheteher the body is the thinker of thought because there are ideas that there is a brain and there are neurons etc. So I cannot go further than the idea that the body is the thinker of thought.

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

What is thinking that thought?

Initially, while looking at this question i came up with ''the body is thinking the thought''. But i have to look deeper in to this and see it more clearly and investigate. i just cannot yet. I need more time to see wheteher the body is the thinker of thought because there are ideas that there is a brain and there are neurons etc. So I cannot go further than the idea that the body is the thinker of thought.

Yes, please dig deep here. Make sure that you really investigate your experience, and don’t fall for thinking and conceptualizing.

Please let me know what you find.

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Hello Vivien

From investigation, this is what i see...

Thoughts happen. They are like soap bubbles appearing and popping up into thin air. It is hard to describe it using words. Thoughts are ungraspable. I cannot say it is produced by mind, i have no way of proving it. No matter how many times i ask "where do thoughts come?" I do not really know. Even that question is a thought...

The body is the body. Is thought being produced by the body. I say no. The body is an appearance just as thought but thought and body are labels from thought. Thought creates a story that the body is the thinker but looking deeper, there is no way i can prove that the body is the thinker of thought. Thoughts are like invisible story tellers of life and they tell all ideas and concepts.

How did i see? I sat quietly and notice that thoughts appear and disappear without a separate thinker 'producing' or creating it. Then i asked, what does the body have to do with the arising of thought? That is when i saw how there is no thinker, no doer, just body, thoughts, beliefs, happening on their own - even doing. All just spontaneously arising. It might sound like conceptual but i cannot use any other means of describing how i see it except through words. This is really something so simple and because i was not investigating or looking deeper, it took a while before i see it.

But it doesn't matter now. The story thought appeared itself through played out spontaneously. Lee is an idea that appeared and the I and the me is just an idea. Without the idea, Lee is nothing, Lee is life flowing and arising. But thought arisen and labels arose, giving label and name to 'Lee' as an idea of a separate entity, autonomous to life. Years and years went by and that idea was believed to be true. Until today, the idea is seen through and the reality is seen that Lee as a concept is no different than a soap bubble thought that appears and disappears. I and me are nothing but arising of an idea, labeling and naming, a false belief of ownership to a body...

This is what is seen now.

I keep looking and looking and this is being constantly seen. Nothing is here except life arising as life. Ideas happen, the body moves on its own, thoughts happen, sensations happen, it all just happens.

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

It is hard to describe it using words. Thoughts happen. They are like soap bubbles appearing and popping up into thin air. Thoughts are ungraspable. I cannot say it is produced by mind, i have no way of proving it. No matter how many times i ask "where do thoughts come?" I do not really know. Even that question is a thought...

Exactly!

The body is the body. Is thought being produced by the body. I say no. The body is an appearance just as thought but thought and body are labels from thought. Thought creates a story that the body is the thinker but looking deeper, there is no way i can prove that the body is the thinker of thought. Thoughts are like invisible story tellers of life and they tell all ideas and concepts.

You did a nice investigation.

The story thought appeared itself through played out spontaneously. Lee is an idea that appeared and the I and the me is just an idea. Without the idea, Lee is nothing, Lee is life flowing and arising. But thought arisen and labels arose, giving label and name to 'Lee' as an idea of a separate entity, autonomous to life. Years and years went by and that idea was believed to be true. Until today, the idea is seen through and the reality is seen that Lee as a concept is no different than a soap bubble thought that appears and disappears. I and me are nothing but arising of an idea, labeling and naming, a false belief of ownership to a body...
I keep looking and looking and this is being constantly seen. Nothing is here except life arising as life. Ideas happen, the body moves on its own, thoughts happen, sensations happen, it all just happens.

Beautiful :)

How does to FEEL this? How does this discover make you feel?

Here are some questions to help to deepen the seeing.

Do you know what thought shows up before it arrives?
Is there something making thoughts to come and go or are they showing up and leaving by themselves?
Is the I in charge of making thoughts go?

Thoughts show up and tell stories.
And what is here underneath thinking?
Is there Lee without a story about Lee?
What drives the story about Lee?
Is Lee here right now?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

HELLO VIVIEN!

How does to FEEL this? How does this discover make you feel?

It feels open, empty, free. I cannot contain or put it into a description. Of course thoughts arise like "then what will happen when the this body dies?" All those kinds of arising thoughts but in terms of FEEL. There is a liberating feeling that i cannot fully fathom. The feeling of calm and serene sense of peace. Although there are still arising of fear, and stuff but the difference is, the fear is seen just as emotion arising and thoughts about fear is seen as thoughts arising. If there is a word that can explain how this feels, it is close to equanimous, neutral or simply the feeling of emptiness. Empty not in a bad sense, not in a good sense, just empty and free and just an okayness of seeing life as it is, seeing all the arising of all sensations, and its utter spontaneity. That is the FEELING. It is just hard to use words, words create labels but i hope i was able to express it as clear as possible. I didn't see it this way before. Like it was this utterly simple. I was just not seeing and investigating enough.

Do you know what thought shows up before it arrives?

I certainly do not. Thoughts happen without my will or effort and i have no idea what thought arises next.

Is there something making thoughts to come and go or are they showing up and leaving by themselves?

Thoughts come and go, shows up and leaves on their own. I have even seen through that even the body actions are no different from thought. LIKE, I WATCH MY HANDS MOVE AND FOR SOME REASON, I HAVE SEEN THAT THE BODY MOVEMENTS ALSO HAPPEN ON THEIR OWN ACCORD.

Is the I in charge of making thoughts go?

The ''I'' is not in charge at all. The I is also a thought that arises and leaves, no different than any other thought that shows up and leaves.

Thoughts show up and tell stories.
And what is here underneath thinking?

Nothing. Nothing underneath the thinking or thought. Thoughts are thoughts and that's just it.

Is there Lee without a story about Lee?

Lee is a story and a label, a thought-form. Without a story about Lee, there would be no Lee. Lee is, like a soap bubble of thought, an idea, a label, a concept. Just that.

What drives the story about Lee?

The story about Lee continues as long as the self is not seen through. Or even if it is seen through, if there is an idea or a concept of ownership or the thought of ''mine'' ''me'' and ''i'' is clung onto, the story of Lee drives. But once it is seen as merely nothing but a story, a soap bubble arising and leaving, the story of Lee, is just like an invisible ungraspable thought popping into thin air.

Is Lee here right now?

Now, Lee is not here. Where is Lee? What is Lee? 3 Letters called ''name'', idea or thought arisen... Right now, Lee is not here.

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

It feels open, empty, free. I cannot contain or put it into a description. Of course thoughts arise like "then what will happen when the this body dies?" All those kinds of arising thoughts but in terms of FEEL. There is a liberating feeling that i cannot fully fathom. The feeling of calm and serene sense of peace. Although there are still arising of fear, and stuff but the difference is, the fear is seen just as emotion arising and thoughts about fear is seen as thoughts arising. If there is a word that can explain how this feels, it is close to equanimous, neutral or simply the feeling of emptiness. Empty not in a bad sense, not in a good sense, just empty and free and just an okayness of seeing life as it is, seeing all the arising of all sensations, and its utter spontaneity. That is the FEELING. It is just hard to use words, words create labels but i hope i was able to express it as clear as possible. I didn't see it this way before. Like it was this utterly simple. I was just not seeing and investigating enough.

Yes, you described it beautifully, thank you :)

Thoughts come and go, shows up and leaves on their own. I have even seen through that even the body actions are no different from thought. LIKE, I WATCH MY HANDS MOVE AND FOR SOME REASON, I HAVE SEEN THAT THE BODY MOVEMENTS ALSO HAPPEN ON THEIR OWN ACCORD.

Yes, nice observation.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Good day Vivien!

First of all, I want to express my deep gratitude for the guidance and time you have shared with me. I cannot recall how I even got to Liberation Unleashed. I just remembered scrolling through reddit and seeing the website until right now, this. I am truly thankful for your help and for patiently guiding me through this.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Everything had been enough. The dissolving of '''why'' arose when life is seen through. Thank you so much again. Now, it is clear that the emotions, conditioning and patterns do not magically disappear. They still pop in and out effortlessly. The only difference is that I see life as it is now without the conceptual overlays. The raw nakedness of life itself is seen and life happens without Lee and the story around Lee and it is beautiful.

Thank you Vivien!

With gratitude,

Lee

[gibberishbla]

Oh i sent you a private message too...

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

What we usually do at this stage, we usually ask some checking questions to see if everything is clear.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Good day Vivien!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There was never a separate self me or I ever. Thoughts arise and thoughts are invisible story labelers or tellers. The me or the ownership to a separate self is nothing but an idea arising. In actuality, there is no me or I or self at all.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Sensation, actions, experiencing, all of life is just happening. Thoughts, emotions, actions - all of these happen. Then there is a thought or a belief that this is me experiencing sensations - claiming to be the experiencer of the experience. When all of that is nothing but an idea or a thought, A STORY from the invisible soap bubble story teller thought. The illusion of separate self is like there is seeing - but thoughts arise ''THIS IS ME SEEING SOMETHING'' Thoughts creating story of there is a seer and an object being seen when in fact, seeing just happens - seeing has no comment about seeing, hearing has no comment about hearing, smelling, tasting, etc - there is just the arising of thought, creating a story that there is a person seeing, hearing, etc - THAT IS THE ILLUSION, The illusion that there is a separate seer to see or hearer to hear - but without the story arising from thought, it is all just happening.

What is different now? NOW is now. There is no difference except that the illusory self is seen through. That is the only difference. Life is and always is. Now, the illusion of a separate me is seen and that is the only difference.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels enough and free. It just feels enough and free - i cannot add anything more to it except its okayness and sense of empty freedom (for lack of a better word) - it is hard to use words to describe it. Adding more words beats it. It just is enough and free. THE DIFFERENCE BEFORE I STARTED THIS DIALOGUE IS that prior to the dialogue, there are certain expectations, certain pre-conceived ideas about how it would unfold, not realizing that it is not what thought expect it to be. It is utterly simple. life is just seen in its utter simplicity in the direct, actual experience. The overlays of concepts are seen for what it is and that's just it.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I really do not know. I guess the frustration of seeking, the energy whatsoever that moves but i really do not know what made me look. It just happened to be that the flow happened like that and I cannot recall the how.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Free will, decisions, intention, these are ideas and thoughts or concepts about life. There is no one to control life. Choices happen but there is no one choosing a choice - it just happens. Like i can choose to eat or sleep later after an hour but the illusion of a separate me choosing to do those activities is non-existent. There is no ''I'' to choose but choices appear and happen on their own - just like the effortless arising of thought, effortless happening of action, choosing happens but not by a separate self, me, or I... it just happens.

LIke from a recent experience, singing happens, reading happens, but is there ''Lee'' reading, no there is never a separate self with a name reading and singing. The direct experience of reading, singing, tasting are all happening. How does that work? There is no how to explain it - the how does it work will only come from a thought or an idea again and a million of ideas and thoughts can appear and arise. In actuality, it all happens effortlessly without a controller or a willer. It has always been free. Putting words to it, makes it more intellectualized. In the actual experience, even the story is just happening on their own. Life is and that's just it.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is no ''you'' to be responsible for anything. To be responsible for something is to create a separate me in control of life to be responsible for a separate entity or something. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN, I can hit a person and say there is no me or i am not responsible for anything. it does not work that way - it is using the concept for another concept or intellectualizing an idea. IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, THE EVEN THE STORY OR QUESTIONS ARISING AS THOUGHT IS JUST SEEN. More like life is lived in a more mindful way when the conceptual overlays are seen through and not believd in face value. There is no way to prove where thoughts come, they just happen. Life happens and even the apparent choices happen. In a relative sense, responsiblity is equated to choice and as the illusory self is seen through, then paradoxically, being responsible is more intact and more embraced because the fear dissolved and clarity is seen in its utterly raw sense = life is crystal clear and the question ''what are you responsbile for does not even arise'' LIFE IS AND THAT IS JUST IT. Life still goes on. Doing the laundry, paying the bills, choosing food on the menu, choices and decisions still happen - it is not a detached way of life. IN FACT, IT IS MORE INTIMATE BECAUSE IT IS SEEN THROUGH. Chopping wood and carrying water is still happening but as the illusions are seen, LIFE IS SEEN IN A CLEARER AND LIGHTER WAY AND THAT'S JUST IT. In a nutshell, the conceptual overlays are just seen and investigated BUT LIFE STILL GOES ON - no extravagance and stuff. JUST IS. Responsibility is still there and choices are still there, even Lee interacting with relatives and friends are still happening but I DO NOT SOUND LIKE ''THERE IS NO LEE'' OR WHAT. I just live and do and resistance has been released. IT IS OKAY, ENOUGH, AND FREE.

6) Anything to add?

Words might have jumbled ideas after concepts and experience but i hope i was able to convey it clearly. Words are thought forms necessary to life in a relative sense. But in summary, everything is unfolding an flowing as it is. Any description added after the IS is a thought. The only difference now is that the thoughts are seen as thoughts and life is LIVED directly, NOT INTELLECTUALIZED THRU BELIEFS, NOT PHILOSOPHIZED BY CONCEPTS - The direct experience of life is seen in its nakedness and rawness. Just as it has always been.

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,
Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions or if something comes up you'd like to look at.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

Vivien