Truthseeking

[Efkap]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self as an entity does not exist, it is a persistent thought which creates the belief of being separate.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for the tools “I” need to help break the habit of believing in the separate self. There are glimpses of the truth, by which I mean moments where thoughts are experienced conditioning which has resulted

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don’t expect anything really. Hopefully I will learn something from the experience. Gain some knowledge or like I mentioned before, acquire some tools which will point me towards the true nature of being.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am fascinated by things like stoicism, Buddhism or the Advaita Vedanta but I haven’t studied them extensively or had any formal training. It’s mostly watching videos on YouTube

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am here to accompany you to go through the illusion of a separate self.

Some rules have to be followed during this dialog :

1) Come to the forum once a day to see if there is something to you come back with the answers to the questions once a day : if you can't do so let me know a day before
2) Read carefully the questions and give answers to each of them separately
3) Be honest with yourself when giving the answers : the answer must be seen as true before writing it down.
4) The answers must be given through direct experience : I will explain what I mean by "direct experience" in this dialog
5) Read the disclaimer text
6) Learn how to use the Quote function.

Best wishes

Warissem

[Efkap]

Hi Warissem. Thanks for coming back to me. I’m ready to begin whenever you are 👍🏼

[warissem]

Hi

OK. What name I can put on you ?

You came here in this forum to see for sure that there is no you, no separate self.
What do you expect to happen to your life after seeing no separate self ?
What will be the changes in the everyday life ?
What will be the changes in your behavior, actions, reactions ?

Warissem

[Efkap]

My name is Paul and I hope to gain knowledge. My expectations don’t really go too far above that. I feel like understanding this will bring some satisfaction. Like scratching an itch. I’m becoming increasingly aware that I’m not the person I’ve considered myself to be. So hopefully some guidance will bring some clarity.

[Efkap]

How or if I change remains to be seen. I don’t want to speculate but if the realisation of no self brings with it a sense of peace I would consider that a positive.

[warissem]

Hi Paul

First, you have to learn how to use the quote function here :viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

You put quote on each of my questions, then give your answer.

Now, you need to be familiar with Looking at direct experience.
Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching (sensations) and knowing thoughts (without taking their train). Example : when I ask what is the color of the sky right now?

There are two kinds of answers :

1) you can guess the answer from what you know or are supposed to know, you say :it is blue.
2) you get up and look outside to the sky and give an answer first hand knowing.

Answering through direct experience is given in case 2) above.

Look at what is going on around for five minutes and write down what is known in direct experience.

Warissem

[Efkap]

[/quote]Look at what is going on around for five minutes and write down what is known in direct experience.[/quote]

I’m in my bedroom after getting out of the shower. I’m sitting on the floor which feels hard beneath me. Outside it is dark, the light in here is on. The towel I have on is damp and uncomfortable. I can hear the TV on downstairs and the sound of the water tank ticking. Thoughts about what I’m going to watch on tv this evening and what I’m doing tomorrow arise. An urge to get changed into something more comfortable than this damp towel. Nothing much else. A feeling of being compelled to write more but not having anything to add. The sound of a car passing. More thoughts of how 5 minutes can seem much longer sometimes. My back is uncomfortable from sitting on the floor typing on my phone. An uneasy feeling that I’m going this exercise wrong. TIMES UP!

[warissem]

Hi Paul

About the quote function : you select the question (move the cursor from left to right of the sentence) then push the "quote" above. It will appear like this :

Look at what is going on around for five minutes and write down what is known in direct experience.

You have done it good. If you need more clarity about looking at direct experience, let me know.

Now i give you an exercise about observation of thoughts. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the evening and notice the arising thoughts. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all. Then answer these questions :

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

NB : select each question using "quote function" then write down the answer. The answers must be given through what you see not from what you know or read in books.

Warissem

[Efkap]

Where are they coming from and going to?

I have no idea where they are coming from or going to. They just appear in my consciousness and then give way to another thought or disappear as I focus on them.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No I was not doing anything in particular. The thoughts arise by themselves.

Can you predict your next thought?

Not during this experiment. They arise at random at without prior knowledge.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, they come by themselves at random. I don’t see how it would be possible to select a thought or to block others.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, again I don’t see how that can be possible.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

This I need some clarification on. Thoughts arise by themselves as this exercise proves but what about recalling a memory?? Would that be choosing a thought?

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Good observations but you forget to answer the 2 last questions.

When you answer, you say " during this experiment" : you can observe thoughts outside of this exercise and give conclusions to yourself.

This I need some clarification on. Thoughts arise by themselves as this exercise proves but what about recalling a memory?? Would that be choosing a thought?

Even about recalling a memory : can a thought be seen before it arises ? can a thought be chosen ?

Warissem

[Efkap]

Even about recalling a memory : can a thought be seen before it arises ? can a thought be chosen

No a thought cannot be seen before it arises there is no control. The reason I wrote “During this experiment” was because although I see and totally accept the random nature of thoughts and “our” complete lack of control over them, there is still a bit of confusion over the role of memory. If someone asked me how the football match was for example, I can recall details and explain them. I’ve tried investigating this and it seems that the thoughts still arise from nowhere and there is no choice in the actual “picture” that’s seen but there does seem to be some agency in selecting the subject. I’m sorry if that doesn’t make much sense but there’s a need to understand this.

[Efkap]

On further enquiry it seems that the thoughts themselves are still random. A friend asking about a football game would point to a subject, the images/memories which arise would still be random and uncontrollable. Or if someone said “Picture an elephant” the image of an elephant would appear but there would be no selection process or control over how it would look. Would that be accurate Warissem?

[warissem]

Hi Paul

Yes a thought cannot be seen before it arises. If a subject (a theme) is fixed, there are thoughts arising around the subject and there is writing or speaking about the subject. Just, observe what is going on when you are writing here on this forum.

Is there a thinker of thoughts ?

Warissem

[Efkap]

Is there a thinker of thoughts ?

This is really hard to answer honestly Warissem. The thoughts just arise in consciousness. In my direct experience there’s no sign of a thinker. There is no “author” of the thoughts but would it be correct to say there is a receiver of them?