Confusion - Which approach to pursue?

[DeLaRiva]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no dooer, thinker, seeer, hearer etc. There is only doing, thinking, seeing, hearing...

What are you looking for at LU?
To get assistance and obtain more clarity on the journey to clearly seeing through the illusion of self.

Other than discussions with a few family members who are also interested in non-duality, I've mostly taken this inward journey alone, which has led to a lot of obstacles and confusion at times.

I hope this forum can help me transcend these illusory roadblocks I sometimes stumble upon :)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Discovering the true nature of self is on my mind almost constantly, I'm ridiculously curious about it.

The benefit of having someone who has already crossed the 'gateless gate' offer a helping hand in discovering the true self through both asking and answering my questions I'm hopeful will help on this journey :)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been seeking for around 10 years on and off, with the intensity in my search really picking up over the last year or so when I stumbled across non-duality.

I feel as though the 'stickiness' of self has decreased significantly during this time, experiencing much less obsessive thinking and generally able to stay more aware through consistent self-enquiry or surrender practices throughout the day.

Currently however, I feel somewhat 'stuck' (if you could call it that!) in regards to which approach to use to see through the self...

I've put a lot of time into self enquiry, where I've come to realise that I can't find the self in anything observable, and so I shift my attention off all objects and sink my attention back into the 'source' so to speak.

On the other hand, I've also gotten a lot of benefit from doing David Hawkins' technique of letting go, whereby you put all attention on whatever emotion is present and thereby surrender trying to control or resist it. This really seems to help take the sting off emotions that I would once label as negative, instead letting the emotion be just what it is; a feeling.

I can feel confused as to which method to use out of these two, especially in times where there may be strong emotions present, since they both practices feel subtly different. I'm unsure whether to take attention off all objects and sink into the self, or instead put all my attention onto whatever emotion is present.

I hope this forum can aid me on my journey to discovering no-self! Thanks!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the response. That's great to hear!

Can we agree on these?

Sounds good to me.

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?

To be honest, I couldn't say. I guess constantly applying self-enquiry/surrender practices at the moment seems to require effort on my part, whereas realisation could be more of an effortless recognition of no-self beyond an intellectual understanding.

With all the resources out there online and in books etc, this can create confusion in the mind and a lack of clarity for me, for example whether to apply self-enquiry or surrender techniques throughout the day. It creates even more confusion when I see that I can even self-enquire into the one who is surrendering, or surrender the feeling of the one who is self-enquiring!

I guess it still feels like there is a subtle 'I' that is choosing to place attention on things.

What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?

Less and less instances of getting lured in and identifying with appearances of the world. That could be situations, thoughts, feelings etc. I guess just a clearer seeing and recognition of the truth.

What would stay the same?

Everything in the world would remain the same. Nothing of the world has to change.

What you do not want to happen?

There is really nothing that I don't want to happen. I'm very open and curious about the nature of experience.

Thanks again!

[Vivien]

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

To be honest, I couldn't say. I guess constantly applying self-enquiry/surrender practices at the moment seems to require effort on my part, whereas realisation could be more of an effortless recognition of no-self beyond an intellectual understanding.

As long as there is a belief that there is a self/I doing things, the appearance of control and doership is a natural outcome. However, when it’s seen that there is no self at the core, it will be clear that nothing is done by anything, everything is just happening as part of the flow of life. We will investigate this topic thoroughly.

With all the resources out there online and in books etc, this can create confusion in the mind and a lack of clarity for me, for example whether to apply self-enquiry or surrender techniques throughout the day. It creates even more confusion when I see that I can even self-enquire into the one who is surrendering, or surrender the feeling of the one who is self-enquiring!

Yes, I hear you. There are lots of techniques out there, giving all sorts of promises. But unfortunately, most of them are just reinforcing the idea that there is someone there doing things, like with surrendering. The idea of surrendering comes with the belief that there is an I/self doing things, and this I makes a decision to surrender, and as a result it performs the act of surrendering. But what if there is no I whatsoever who could surrender?

I guess it still feels like there is a subtle 'I' that is choosing to place attention on things.

Yes. We will look into this.

Less and less instances of getting lured in and identifying with appearances of the world.

This expectation is also based in the belief that there is an I/self here who is identifying with the appearances of the world. So this I just have to stop identifying, it just should distance itself from the world. But what if there is no I whatsoever that could be distanced from the world or anything else? What if there is no I identifying at all?

There is really nothing that I don't want to happen. I'm very open and curious about the nature of experience.

That’s very good :)

I can feel confused as to which method to use out of these two

For the time of our inquiry, I would like to ask you to stop doing any kind of practices, all right?

I’m asking this for 2 reasons. Practices can fortify the idea of there being an I, a doer, so it’s counterproductive. Also, the time you spend on practicing something could be used for inquiry. The more time and energy you spend on inquiry the greater the chance for realization.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

What name would you like me to call you?

Sorry, forgot to mention that! My name is Reece, nice to meet you.

For the time of our inquiry, I would like to ask you to stop doing any kind of practices, all right?

Yeah, happy to do that.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Agreed.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

No, I can't sense resistance. It's more of a relief really, to just drop everything and follow the questions that you set out.

Looking forward to starting the investigation!

Reece

[DeLaRiva]

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Yeah, I can see how having expectation is only more of a barrier to seeing what is, trying to get someplace else rather than being with what is. I can also see what you mentioned about following practices, how in a way it can reinforce the sense of a 'dooer'. I think I can get too bogged down in the intellectual understandings of these teachings which also ends up being a hindrance. So approaching this enquiry with a clean slate sounds appealing :)

Thanks,

Reece

[Vivien]

Hi Reece,

All right, let’s start it then.

The self is thought to be the thinker of thoughts, the doer of deeds, the chooser, the decider, the experiencer, the observer, and as that a tangible entity, isn't it?

Or maybe you perceive it differently? How do you perceive the self / I?

Please make sure that you really check your perception of the self/I in your everyday life. So here we are interested in how the self shows up for you in your daily life, and not what is your intellectual understanding of it.

Can you tell me in simple words where you find a self?
In the body, in the story, in the fridge – wherever?

So spend a whole day on this, looking as often as you can. You just simply turn your attention where the self is.

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

The self is thought to be the thinker of thoughts, the doer of deeds, the chooser, the decider, the experiencer, the observer, and as that a tangible entity, isn't it?

Or maybe you perceive it differently? How do you perceive the self / I?

Yeah, I'd say that for me, the I/self feels more like the controller of attention, the feeling that attention can be taken away from thoughts/experiences and instead directed towards things like self-enquiry.

That's not to say that I don't get lost in/identify with thought still, but when I come to realise that I've been lost in thought, I can see that I'm not that and not get so caught up in it, moving my attention away from thinking.

Can you tell me in simple words where you find a self?
In the body, in the story, in the fridge – wherever?

So spend a whole day on this, looking as often as you can. You just simply turn your attention where the self is.

When I look for the self, attention first goes to the head, behind the eyes/between the ears. But upon closer inspection, this is just a sensation/vibration that I'm aware of.

When I try to look for the 'I', I can't actually find anything, there is nothing for attention to focus on.

I even see that attention itself is an appearance which I can become aware of.

There is a strong, undeniable sense that I am here and that I'm aware, but I can not find any object that I can actually pin point as 'me'.

Cheers,

Reece

[Vivien]

Hi Reece,

Yeah, I'd say that for me, the I/self feels more like the controller of attention, the feeling that attention can be taken away from thoughts/experiences and instead directed towards things like self-enquiry.

OK. Let’s look at HOW this happens in experience exactly.

Please describe me in detail the step-by-step process of moving attention from thoughts. HOW do you do it?

Make sure that you don’t just say that I move attention away from a thought. What we are interesting in is the moment when it SEEMS that you are moving attention. So focus on that very moment, and tell me how you do it exactly.

I even see that attention itself is an appearance which I can become aware of.

You can be aware of attention itself? Are you sure about it?

It’s important to distinguish between what can be experienced in the moment - via the senses - and what is content of thought, meaning added.

DE (direct experience): color, sound, taste, smell, sensation (what can be known via the senses directly)
Everything else is ADDED as a thought.

What we are doing here is to see what is actually experienced and what is just an ADDED thought story, so we can see the difference between reality/experience and thought/fiction.

So, going back to attention:

Please describe in detail the EXPERIENCE of attention itself. Not the object that attention is on, but the experience of raw attention itself.

There is a strong, undeniable sense that I am here and that I'm aware, but I can not find any object that I can actually pin point as 'me'.

Could you describe me this ‘sense that I am here’ without adding anything extra, just the raw experience of it?

How is this sense ‘I am here’ is experience? By which of the 5 senses?

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

Please describe me in detail the step-by-step process of moving attention from thoughts. HOW do you do it?

1) There is a stream of thoughts/thinking happening
2) There is then a noticing of the thoughts, and this observing instantly causes thinking to stop
3) There is then the thought 'who are these thoughts appearing to?' or 'what am I?'
4) There is then a focused looking for the self, but there is nothing objective to find. So it feels that attention is focused on nothing in particular.

This happens constantly throughout the day.

You can be aware of attention itself? Are you sure about it?

No, it doesn't seem to be something I can actually be aware of with the five senses. I can only be aware of the concept of attention - but that is just a thought. Attention can't place attention on itself, it just draws a stillness/blankness.

But during enquiry - while looking for the self - the thought has popped up 'who is the one looking for the self?', which can cause me to drop even the thought/belief that I'm controlling attention, and the effort of attention looking for the self also drops away.

This gives a lighter sensation in the body, it doesn't feel as tight/constricted. There is less tension in the body when all effort is relaxed and attention is focused on nothing in particular, rather than when there is a focused looking for the self.

Please describe in detail the EXPERIENCE of attention itself. Not the object that attention is on, but the experience of raw attention itself.

I can't objectively describe attention. It's just a focused looking at one aspect within the field of awareness. Attention can't place attention on itself, it can only go outwards.

[DeLaRiva]

Could you describe me this ‘sense that I am here’ without adding anything extra, just the raw experience of it?

How is this sense ‘I am here’ is experience? By which of the 5 senses?

Well the thought 'I am here' is just a thought. There is also an accompanying vibration/sensation in the head and chest/heart area. Although I know this is only a sensation within awareness that I am aware of and not actually 'me'.

Even though I can't pin point the self through observation, the sense of me is felt by having an awareness of the world through the 5 senses. Seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting are all known and felt in experience. This doesn't feel like a convincing answer though, since even without the senses, there would still be a knowing of even that.

Cheers,

Reece

[Vivien]

Hi Reece,

There are 4 different topics to look at in your replies, so we cut them up, and look at them one-by-one. We will come back to the others later.

V: Please describe me in detail the step-by-step process of moving attention from thoughts. HOW do you do it?

R: 1) There is a stream of thoughts/thinking happening
2) There is then a noticing of the thoughts, and this observing instantly causes thinking to stop
3) There is then the thought 'who are these thoughts appearing to?' or 'what am I?'
4) There is then a focused looking for the self, but there is nothing objective to find. So it feels that attention is focused on nothing in particular.

OK. So you wrote down what is happening, but not HOW YOU do it.

Look for the doing part of it… since you think that you are MOVING attention, that you have power over it, that you are the doer. So how do you DO It?

How do you move from step 1 to step 2? And then to the next step? And the next? – focus on the doing part

Please spend a whole day looking at this repeatedly again and again. Repetition is key here.

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

Look for the doing part of it… since you think that you are MOVING attention, that you have power over it, that you are the doer. So how do you DO It?

How do you move from step 1 to step 2? And then to the next step? And the next? – focus on the doing part

I can't explain 'how' I actually control this process and move from step to step. These steps are just happening, they spring into my awareness without 'me' actually having to do anything, and I can only become conscious of each step once it has already entered my awareness. Describing the 'how' I do it seems impossible, since it feels more like I'm observing it happen.

I guess I just believe/assume that I'm controlling attention, but this belief is just another thought.

The exercise of looking for the 'how' brought about a strong feeling of confusion for the mind, haha. The idea that I control attention seems false, but then taking a passive approach/not controlling attention also appears to be another way of controlling attention? The act of trying to do (or not do) anything at all doesn't really make sense since there is nobody choosing to do either, which leaves the 'I' completely baffled.

Thanks,

Reece

[Vivien]

Hi Reece,

You did a nice investigation. Let’s dig a bit deeper, just to make sure no stone is left unturned.

You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.
Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?

If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?

Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session too. Let me know what you find.

These steps are just happening, they spring into my awareness without 'me' actually having to do anything, and I can only become conscious of each step once it has already entered my awareness.

MY awareness? What is it that HAS an awareness? Where is the I that is having an awareness? Where is the owner?
Look for it.

Vivien

[DeLaRiva]

Hi Vivien,

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?

If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?

I experimented with this intermittently throughout the day, with a longer session in the afternoon (around 45 minutes).

Attention was automatically and constantly getting dragged away - mostly by thought - and then once this was noticed, thought vanished and attention was placed back on the breath. Rinse and repeat. Very tough for attention to simply stand still on the breath.

I didn't control where attention was floating off to, and while I'd usually assume that I'm the one bringing attention back to the breath, on closer inspection this doesn't actually seem true.

I did not decide when to notice that attention was lost in thought, this noticing also seemingly came of its own accord. And similar to the last exercise, I concede that I can't explain HOW I actually move attention towards the breath; there is just a sudden recognition that attention was on thought, and then there is a turning of focus back towards the breath.

Absolutely everything I notice is pretty much popping up in this awareness, until it's actually in awareness it's impossible to be aware of it.

MY awareness? What is it that HAS an awareness? Where is the I that is having an awareness? Where is the owner?

I can't find an I, but this vehicle of 'Reece' seems to have a unique experience when compared to others. Like if I see somebody eat an apple, I can only see the apple - I can't actually experience the taste of the apple like they can. Or only I can observe the thoughts that seemingly spring from the mind of Reece. I guess this can give the impression that there are different awarenesses so to speak.

Thanks,

Reece