Giving this a try

[Sender]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that it is what life can look like when the part that allows no decision to be made is settled into

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a 1-on-1 exchange. There is a part of me that fears I will do this half-heartedly or that I am not ready yet but here I am creating this thread after a long time of reading about nonduality. That being said, I do feel I am more mellow than I used to and less reactive than I used to be and this might facilitate my looking.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't know. In my mind, there will be a real person on the other end dedicating their time to my facilitation. I wonder what the effect of this kind of communication can be. I hope I can be honest and dedicated.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I first came across Katie Byron in 2018 and after some time the nonduality scene showed up. I have spent quite some time watching and reading various speakers. At this point I feel I know what 'mind' and 'heart' point to and I recently started being able to catch internal movements that give rise to thoughts that lead to bodily sensations (aches mostly), so I am traveling a bit lighter thanks to that.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Jadzia]

Hi Sender,

I am Jadzia, as 'real' as anything can get. ;-)
So if you are ready to take all your courage to investigate beliefs, assumptions and all you learned and trusted to be true then we can have a lovely walk together turning stones around, look behind bushes and scrubs, digg holes and simply have a look together at what really is and what isn't.

At this point I feel I know what 'mind' and 'heart' point to and I recently started being able to catch internal movements that give rise to thoughts that lead to bodily sensations (aches mostly), so I am traveling a bit lighter thanks to that.

Can you explain a bit what exactly you are doing?

What do you imaging you will be like after Gating?
What will your life be like?
What will change and what might stay the same?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

Why nine and not ten?

This investigation will be a bit chatting and lots of questions. Answer all questions as honestly as you can. Each answer simply shows where you are and which path we will turn into, ok?

Love,
Jadzia

[Sender]

Hi Jadzia,

Thank you for writing. Starting with your last question, I felt like using any number below the highest ones because I don't know where I stand on the willingness spectrum. You wrote ''take all your courage to investigate beliefs''. A job recruiter once gave me the feedback that he was told I am courageous but, in my opinion, at the time I was just doing things out of fear.

At this point I feel I know what 'mind' and 'heart' point to and I recently started being able to catch internal movements that give rise to thoughts that lead to bodily sensations (aches mostly), so I am traveling a bit lighter thanks to that.

Can you explain a bit what exactly you are doing?

'Mind' is the sensation that tells me what is wrong and urges me to figure out how to make things less wrong. It comes with a heady feeling. If I go below the neck, then I experience less constriction. Maybe I should not use the word 'heart' for that because this experience is not localized. Regarding the awareness of internal movements, I played with that when I realized I have the option to avoid thoughts and that I cannot really know the outcome of that 'avoidance'. It goes something like this: Awareness of discomfort, then taking a wild guess as to what thought might be linked to that, then diffusing attention (the thought-tracking step can be skipped). The whole thing does not feel completely right because of the 'avoidance' aspect. Also, this reply to your question feels less clear compared to the previous one and I had to think longer.

What do you imaging you will be like after Gating?

I will not believe I have insight into what I or others want and need. I will be less manipulative (I have spent quite some time on a Jungian personality theory, thinking and taking pride in seeing myself as an intuitive feeler).

What will your life be like?

There will be enough clarity and therefore room for inquiry. I will be more at ease with being in the company of people since I will not believe there is a specific 'me' sitting (or having to sit) with specific 'others'.

What will change and what might stay the same?

There will be fewer stories taken at face value. Things might change or stay the same in the way they are meant to but there might be a certainty that there is no need to feel guilty for not trying in the usual ways.

[Jadzia]

A job recruiter once gave me the feedback that he was told I am courageous but, in my opinion, at the time I was just doing things out of fear.

Courage can stem from a variety of things.

Awareness of discomfort, then taking a wild guess as to what thought might be linked to that, then diffusing attention (the thought-tracking step can be skipped). The whole thing does not feel completely right because of the 'avoidance' aspect. Also, this reply to your question feels less clear compared to the previous one and I had to think longer.

Avoiding is tricky and in the long run not helpful or even needed. Thoughts are just thoughts. The only power they have is the one you give them, with the belief in what they talk about without questioning it.

Thanks for pinning down the expectations. Keep a keen eye on other expectations, some can get into the way.

I will be more at ease with being in the company of people since I will not believe there is a specific 'me' sitting (or having to sit) with specific 'others'.

This might take some looking at even after gating.

There will be fewer stories taken at face value.

Actually not many at all.
See, thoughts can be noticed in the direct experience, as can be sensation(Physical feeling), taste, smell, sound, colour/form. You notice a thought like in "Hey, here is a thought".
Thoughts have something they 'tell', the content. The content can point to something in direct experience: like "here is a car" - which in direct experience is colour and form. The content can point to another thought, meaning there is nothing in your direct experience.
Example: think of your breakfast, do it with love, get the taste, the feeling of eating - you can go fully into it.
But where is the breakfast right now?

Love,
Jadzia

[Sender]

Indeed, the meal now is just mental images and at the time of its consumption it felt more real because other sensations were coming into play or were expected to do so.

Thank you

[Jadzia]

Indeed, the meal now is just mental images and at the time of its consumption it felt more real because other sensations were coming into play or were expected to do so.

Yes, well done.
One is the real thing, that what happens in the moment and is taken in by the senses, the other is the kind of weaker replay....not existent in the very moment.

This is what our walk is about. We look left and right and enjoy that what we find, that what is real, what is in the moment, the now. Of absolutely no interest for the moment is knowledge aka learned stuff aka memory.
Do you see, you can notice a thought in the moment but the content of thought, that what thought talks about is not real, doesn't exist.

Lets get back to the thought "Here is a car".
One could rightly claím that this thought points to something in the now, right?
But is a car seen or colour/form?
What is car? Isn't it simply a name for something? A label?
Check for yourself.

Love,
Jadzia

[Sender]

Lets get back to the thought "Here is a car".
One could rightly claím that this thought points to something in the now, right?
But is a car seen or colour/form?
What is car? Isn't it simply a name for something? A label?

Yes it is just a label. It is just color, form and - in my experience - these can trigger emotions such as anticipation, nostalgia, sadness, (over)saturation. Seeing this sequence and knowing I can take a break between the two already provides relief.

[Jadzia]

Yes it is just a label. It is just color, form and - in my experience - these can trigger emotions such as anticipation, nostalgia, sadness, (over)saturation.

Ok, 'car' is a label.
Now the next question is: Can a label do or know something?
Does the label know what it describes?
Can a lable, which is a word, trigger something?

You already seen a word, a thought, doesn't come on it's own. Once can't just think 'car' without thinking that the car needs a wash, petrol, remember a holiday where the car played a big role or whatever.
Just think Apple, what happens in thoughts?

Love,
Jadzia

[Sender]

Now the next question is: Can a label do or know something?

Does the label know what it describes?

Can a lable, which is a word, trigger something?

The answer to these questions is No. I can see how there has been a tendency to try and milk a label, thinking that gold can be found in mind.

Just think Apple, what happens in thoughts?

The image of an apple on a kitchen counter comes up. Feelings of domestication and duty follow. The whole thing feels like a sheet that falls on my face, which can be a palpable sensation, almost an internal face tingling. There are thoughts about having to tidy up my living premises but lately I am more at peace with the way things are.

[Sender]

Bringing an apple to my mind's eye itself does not trigger the rest. For a long time there has been a tendency to 'reach out' for a bigger context, which felt like an attempt to expand the mind but it is in essence a contraction. So what I described does not come from the image. It is more like a remnant of what was happening almost reflexively. I say almost because there was deliberation too.

[Jadzia]

The answer to these questions is No. I can see how there has been a tendency to try and milk a label, thinking that gold can be found in mind.

It is good to keep in mind that there is no connection between a label and that what it names.

The image of an apple on a kitchen counter comes up.

One word, one thought never stays alone, lol. Right? Have an eye on that.

Bringing an apple to my mind's eye itself does not trigger the rest.

Lets have a look at thoughts.
If you sit quietly for a moment and just observe thoughts coming and going.
Are you making up the thoughts or are they just coming and going?
Any idea where they come from and go to?
In case you feel like the thinker of thoughts:
Can you choose thoughts, any thought and stick to it?
Can you choose not to think something?
If Sender would control thoughts this should be possible, right?

Love,
Jadzia

[Sender]

If you sit quietly for a moment and just observe thoughts coming and going.
Are you making up the thoughts or are they just coming and going?

It seems that I do not make them up nor do they just come and go. The way I can put it is that there is an emotional state that illuminates stimuli. This state is rather fickle and therefore whatever it touches (whatever thoughts are scanned by it) is consciously considered in a fickle way.

Any idea where they come from and go to?

They just exist depending on how attention is configured here.

In case you feel like the thinker of thoughts:
Can you choose thoughts, any thought and stick to it?

No but there is a sense of browsing thought-ghosts. There is a feeling of head centeredness that is stable.

Can you choose not to think something?

No. Even if I think I can, there is just building upon a thought and - taking out this visualised story of building - not even that.

If Sender would control thoughts this should be possible, right?

yes and Sender better see this before Sender gets an aneurysm. That was a silly joke but there was laughter.

Thank you

[Jadzia]

The way I can put it is that there is an emotional state that illuminates stimuli. This state is rather fickle and therefore whatever it touches (whatever thoughts are scanned by it) is consciously considered in a fickle way.

Interesting explanation by thoughts. ;-)
What of this would you find in your direct experience right now?

See, as soon as simple observation is happening thoughts jump in and 'tell' about the why and how, offering explanations, or better said assumptions - they are offering something, they will always do. This doesn't create a problem but taking them for truth and nothing but the truth and not as offerings one can take or discard does create a problem.

Any idea where they come from and go to?
They just exist depending on how attention is configured here.

What attention and by whom?

No but there is a sense of browsing thought-ghosts. There is a feeling of head centeredness that is stable.

Time to look deeper.
The sense of something is it a physical proven sensation or sense input if it is not what is it?
Is it a matter of speaking, is it a thought guessing, offering something?

Have a closer look at the head centeredness.Is there something assumed to be in the head? What makes the centeredness?

If you think of Sender, where would you point to and say 'here Sender is', or 'This is Sender'
What makes the Sender-ness?

No. Even if I think I can, there is just building upon a thought and - taking out this visualised story of building - not even that.

No one can't.

Enjoy exploring.
Jadzia

[Sender]

What of this would you find in your direct experience right now?

Nothing. There is just movement/visual input, sound, sitting sensation.

Any idea where they come from and go to?

They just exist depending on how attention is configured here.

What attention and by whom?

By noone. What I call attention is the sense that whatever is perceived/happens can and should be 'taken in' (the body/head/mind) so that it gets molded into a legitimate understanding.

Time to look deeper.
The sense of something is it a physical proven sensation or sense input if it is not what is it?
Is it a matter of speaking, is it a thought guessing, offering something?

Yes it is more like a matter of speaking and guessing. Maybe driven by the beliefs that proper action comes through thought and that internal pressure can be relieved by making the proper associations. What I have just typed is a story. I don't know what a wish and a belief are. There are hands typing, head pressure, breathing. The wish to offer something insightful.

Have a closer look at the head centeredness. Is there something assumed to be in the head? What makes the centeredness?

Yes there something assumed to be in the head. The view that there is a little overworked factory behind the eyes. There is intensity between my eyebrows that comes and goes. 'Centered' because it seemingly appears at the same spot.

If you think of Sender, where would you point to and say 'here Sender is', or 'This is Sender'
What makes the Sender-ness?

I would probably point at the body. 'where there is pain/tension, there I am'. There is the story that within this bundle of sensation there is a sense-making faculty that can help itself and others. It is substantiated by the belief that others (who are ultimately color/sound) can see what I see and more/less. If more, then there is effort to 'reach' them. If less, then then there is effort to get them 'on board'. I don't know if there is anything in this that remotely answers the question.

[Jadzia]

Nothing. There is just movement/visual input, sound, sitting sensation.

Right, so everything else is content of thought.

By noone. What I call attention is the sense that whatever is perceived/happens can and should be 'taken in' (the body/head/mind) so that it gets molded into a legitimate understanding.

Well, it can't be known, right? There is some taking in but is it Sender?
Again a sentences with 'sense' in it. In this case it is a thought again aka a belief. There is the belief that there is a head, a body, a mind.
If you close your eyes and look for the three, what do you find?

es there something assumed to be in the head. The view that there is a little overworked factory behind the eyes. There is intensity between my eyebrows that comes and goes. 'Centered' because it seemingly appears at the same spot.

Alright.
What is this factory supposed to be?
There is a sensation labeled intensity and given a place.
Is this sensation intensity or is it just a description?
Can it be known in the direct experience that there eyebrows?

I would probably point at the body. 'where there is pain/tension, there I am'. There is the story that within this bundle of sensation there is a sense-making faculty that can help itself and others. It is substantiated by the belief that others (who are ultimately color/sound) can see what I see and more/less. If more, then there is effort to 'reach' them. If less, then then there is effort to get them 'on board'. I don't know if there is anything in this that remotely answers the question.

Right, there is a story about a Sender.
There are things, ideas of what Sender is like,what belongs to Sender: Senders body, Senders sense-making faculty.
What else is Sender? Thinker? Doer? Controler of life? Action person? Decider? Chooser?
There obviously is a whole story about S, starting somewhere in the past and going on to this moment. Dislikes, likes, hobbies and so on.
When you back to Senders body. If you close your eyes what is there in the direct experience?
Can a tag be found saying Sender?

go on looking :-)

Love,
Jadzia