Inquiry with forgetmenot

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forgetmenot
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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:27 pm

Hi Allen,
I'm finding this one to be really difficult. Thought automatically connects the image to the sensation. I'm going to spend some more time with it.
Take your time but don't expect thought not to do what it does! Thought automatically appears naming, defining and interpreting. Allow thoughts to do what they do...just ignore them. When your eyes are closed get a good sense of sensations labelled 'hand', then open your eyes and notice how how colour labelled 'hand' and sensation arise simultaneously.

The realisation of there being no separate self does not stop thoughts from appearing and does not necessarily quieten the mind either. Do you meditate? Do you do any practice that helps quieten the mind at all? If not, I would suggest that perhaps you do as a means of supporting yourself.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:26 pm

Hi Kay,

I don't currently meditate, but I can start. What are some of the other practices you refer to that quiet the mind?

I think there's a tendency for me to overcomplicate a lot of things, like with this exercise.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, I can see that they're not coming from each other even though they appear at the same time.

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
There's nothing about the raw sensation or image that suggests they are linked to anything else.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

No, the sensation isn't coming from the colour, it's just there. It's thought that puts labels on the colour and the sensation.

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains.
Let me know how you go.

I did this exercise with the thought "I'm worried". It helped to bring me back to "this" and out of the thoughts. It helped to show that what thought says is not really happening, although worrisome thoughts continued to pop up afterwards.

Thanks!

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:16 am

Hi Allen,

You will probably want a couple of days to do the exercises given. We are having a close look at sensations. When sensations arise...remember to breathe like you normally would...in and out through the nose.
I don't currently meditate, but I can start. What are some of the other practices you refer to that quiet the mind?
I would suggest that you familiarise yourself with The Work of Byron Katie to investigate the ‘worrisome’ thoughts and any thought that SEEMS to create suffering ie fear, anger, disappointment etc. Whatever the situation is that is appearing at the level of form is not the problem. It’s our thoughts about them. There is an emotional attachment to the thoughts, and when we start investigate our thoughts/beliefs we start to cut the imaginary thread between the thought and the emotion. Trauma and conditioning do have to be investigated as a means for them to be integrated. Doing The Work of Byron Katie….called “The Work” is a great way to start.

https://thework.com/

Mindfulness is great to do when the mind is very busy, or even when emotions become overwhelming as it has a grounding affect. Just NOTICE thoughts and mental images as they appear, but let them pass on by. Observe thoughts as if you are observing a movie or observing clouds passing in the sky.

1. Slowly take in 3 deep breaths. Breathe in deeply through the nose, as if you are breathing into the tips of your toes, and then slowly breathe it out through the mouth.

Then place your attention on your feet and slowly wriggle and scrunch the toes - really feel and notice the sensation as you wriggle and scrunch.

2. Place your feet flat on the floor and notice for a few moments how solid the floor is under your feet and how that feels. Notice the sensations at the bottom of the feet.

Then notice how your backside feels in the chair you are sitting on. Notice how the chair is supporting your body and really pay attention to the sensation of the backside on the chair and your back against the chair. Take your time and really notice this. Remember just NOTICE any labels/thoughts or mental images that appear and let them pass on by.

Notice where your hands are placed and really notice the sensation of them wherever they are lying.

3. Take in a couple more deep breaths and start to pay attention to what is in the room. Very very slowly start to look around the room, noting the colour of the walls, the furniture, the floor. Then choose one object.

Really look at the object carefully noting its shape and colour and any textures, and just notice the labels/thoughts appearing about the object and let them pass on by. Bring your attention back to the object and simply notice the colour/shape and texture before moving onto the next object.

Do this with another 4 objects.

4. Listen carefully to what sounds you hear, both inside and outside of the room, and pay close attention to each sound for a few moments. Just notice the labels/thoughts appearing about the sound and let them pass on by like clouds in the sky and bring your attention back to the sounds.

5. Notice if there are any smells and taste - if any, do the same with them.

6. Scan the body and notice if there are any sensations happening anywhere and pay close attention to them for a while. Again just notice labels/thoughts and then bring your attention back to the sensations.

7. When you have done this, take in a couple more deep breaths and once again feel the firmness of the floor underneath your feet and your bum on the chair.

By doing this, it takes your focus off thoughts and onto your direct actual experience of the senses...with the noticing of thought.
I think there's a tendency for me to overcomplicate a lot of things, like with this exercise.
Yes, that is the impression I get.
So what is it that you are afraid of happening or not happening? Can you tell me why the tendency to overcomplicate comes about? What’s the fear?
If you don't want to express them here is an open forum, please PM me.
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, I can see that they're not coming from each other even though they appear at the same time.
Lovely.

Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
There's nothing about the raw sensation or image that suggests they are linked to anything else.
Yes, it is only thought that suggests they are linked.

So, can you see how this would be the same between a thought and a sensation?

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?


2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains.
Let me know how you go.
I did this exercise with the thought "I'm worried". It helped to bring me back to "this" and out of the thoughts. It helped to show that what thought says is not really happening, although worrisome thoughts continued to pop up afterwards.
So look again to see if the ‘worrisome’ thought points to AE or points to thoughts about thought. Worrisome aka fearful thoughts aren't going to disappear. Eventually they do become less but do they all disappear forever? No. It's learning to see them for what they are that is the key. Keep the above exercise in your tool kit and use it often. I call it the ‘blahblahblah’ exercise.

The reason why thoughts keep regurgitating is because there is a feeling that needs to be acknowledged and fully experienced. It’s the not wanting to experience the feelings that is the problem.

Close your eyes and bring to mind, what you call a ‘worrisome’ thought…but not one that overwhelms you with fear…but one that you notice the sensation in the body. Worry is fear, so it’s a fear based thought. Notice where the sensation arises in the body and explore the following.

Divested of the story that is attached to that sensation labelled ‘fear’, what is the sensation itself?

Explore the sensation. Notice it, observe what it does.
It’s like the sensation is continually changing. It moves around, it becomes more intense, it becomes less intense; always changing its shape.

Go deeply into that sensation (ie the vibration)

How old is that sensation?

When you say it has always been there, you’re referring to time. That means you are referring to thought.

Refer to the sensation.
How long has this current sensation been present?
Just now. Right?


If you had to describe this sensation, how would you describe it? Is it describable?

It’s morphing, it’s changing, it’s vibrating, but the vibrating is itself a sensation.

Is it really unpleasant? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought?

Just leave your thoughts in the background, turn the volume down and refer directly to the sensation.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘fear’?
Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?

A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?

Report back on what you found when doing this exercise.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:17 pm

Hi Kay,

I've been really busy the past couple of days, so I'll need to take some extra time to reply.

Thanks,

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:19 am

Hi Kay,

I would suggest that you familiarise yourself with The Work of Byron Katie to investigate the ‘worrisome’ thoughts and any thought that SEEMS to create suffering ie fear, anger, disappointment etc. Whatever the situation is that is appearing at the level of form is not the problem. It’s our thoughts about them. There is an emotional attachment to the thoughts, and when we start investigate our thoughts/beliefs we start to cut the imaginary thread between the thought and the emotion. Trauma and conditioning do have to be investigated as a means for them to be integrated. Doing The Work of Byron Katie….called “The Work” is a great way to start.

Thank you for this. This is very valuable information for me.


About the mindfulness exercise, is this "state" of mindfulness what I should aim for when trying to become the observer of all thoughts? Sometimes I'm not really sure where to put my focus. Do I hold focus on the thoughts to see what they really are or just focus on actual experience while noticing thoughts going by like in the exercise?

Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Cool!

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

Thought and sensation don't know about each other. They're not entities that know things. There's no link between them.

But it seems like thought can be used to trigger sensations somehow. Like in the exercise below.

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Sure it's possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scale. Focus can be adjusted.

Divested of the story that is attached to that sensation labelled ‘fear’, what is the sensation itself?

It's just a sensation. Just a presence.

How old is that sensation?

When you say it has always been there, you’re referring to time. That means you are referring to thought.

Refer to the sensation.
How long has this current sensation been present?
Just now. Right?

Yes, the sensation is here right now.

If you had to describe this sensation, how would you describe it? Is it describable?

It's mostly indescribable. It's just something that's present. If I had to describe it to someone who had not felt it before, they wouldn't know what I was talking about until they had felt it for themselves.

Is it really unpleasant? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought?

Yes, the unpleasant label is just added by thought.

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

No, it's just a neutral sensation.

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?

A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?

The sensations feel different, but they are essentially the same thing. Kind of like different flavours of the same thing. Their nature is the same. I think this extends to all of experience too (colour, sound etc.). Everything is just some kind of existence/presence. It would be impossible to describe colour or sound to someone who hasn't experienced it before. Like trying to describe the taste of a food to someone who's never had it before. They can't possibly know until they taste it for themselves.


Thanks!

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:24 am

Hello Allen,
About the mindfulness exercise, is this "state" of mindfulness what I should aim for when trying to become the observer of all thoughts? Sometimes I'm not really sure where to put my focus. Do I hold focus on the thoughts to see what they really are or just focus on actual experience while noticing thoughts going by like in the exercise?
I wouldn’t be aiming for anything. The point of mindfulness is to allow you some grace from the busy mind by bringing you into the present moment, instead of being caught up in the mind that imagines a past, a future filled with problems. The mind wants to be constantly doing and efforting in order to reach some sort of specific state, to some special way of being. States of mind come and go, so chasing some sort of shangri la is just seeking perpetuated and only adds to any suffering. What you are is not touched by any of this, but to come to this realisation takes more than just realising that you are not the separate self that suffers. It seems to be a journey within itself where many tools, processes are used and where yo-yoing between clarity and confusion, suffering etc are experienced. This is just how it is. The desire for the present moment to be different to how it is appearing is one of the greatest sources of suffering.
How long has this current sensation been present?
Just now. Right?
Yes, the sensation is here right now.
Exactly. Without the thought stories about what the sensation is, and the stories of a past history about the sensation, then how can it possibly be known that you have had that sensation before? It is only thought that postulates this.
2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
Sure it's possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scale. Focus can be adjusted.
It has been my experience that when I focus on one thing, the other goes more to the background…that two experiences cannot be focussed on with the same amount of focus, at the same time. If I just focus on sensation, then thoughts are no longer prevalent and vice versa.

Actually this is a good time to look at the idea of focus and attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?
The sensations feel different, but they are essentially the same thing. Kind of like different flavours of the same thing. Their nature is the same. I think this extends to all of experience too (colour, sound etc.). Everything is just some kind of existence/presence. It would be impossible to describe colour or sound to someone who hasn't experienced it before. Like trying to describe the taste of a food to someone who's never had it before. They can't possibly know until they taste it for themselves.
So, the experience, from the point of view of thought is that there must be someone who is experiencing the experience.

Can experience labelled as 'sensation' ever arise without the knowing of it? When you look, can you find where a sensation ends and the knowing of it begins? Is there a dividing line between a sensation (which is known) and the knowing of the known, or are they one and the same thing? Is there an actuality of knowing AND known or just knowingknown?

Kay
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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:35 pm

Hi Kay,

It has been my experience that when I focus on one thing, the other goes more to the background…that two experiences cannot be focussed on with the same amount of focus, at the same time. If I just focus on sensation, then thoughts are no longer prevalent and vice versa.

You're right. I didn't look carefully. I only imagined I was looking at two things at once. What I was looking at was a thought. I can't focus on thought and sensation equally at once.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

It moves by itself. I can't find anything that moves it. There's nothing behind it.

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something you control?

It's not something "I" control. There's no "I" that controls. There's just nothing behind anything that happens.

What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?

Nothing moves attention. It moves on it's own. Even when I seemingly move it on purpose to different things, I can't find anything behind this movement. Even when it feels like there's a me doing it, there's nothing behind this feeling either. There's nothing behind the whole thing.

Thought is not in control of it. Although it can seem like that at times. But thought is not behind it.

Sometimes attention moves to thought and sometimes away from thought. Like when I'm lost in thought and come back to the present. I don't know how this is done. There isn't a me who decides to come back. It just happens.

I think I've had a little tiny glimpse at the "being lived" effect that I've read about. Also the "life is a play" effect too. Just a little bit. There's nothing behind anything that's done or happening. Even these words I'm typing right now, I can't tell what's behind them.

Can experience labelled as 'sensation' ever arise without the knowing of it? When you look, can you find where a sensation ends and the knowing of it begins? Is there a dividing line between a sensation (which is known) and the knowing of the known, or are they one and the same thing? Is there an actuality of knowing AND known or just knowingknown?

I can't find where sensation ends and the knowing of it begins. There's no dividing line. They are the same. It's just knowingknown.


Thanks!

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:50 pm

Hi Allen,

As you noticed, wherever focus/attention goes, it is simply a happening and nothing can be found that is the doer of this. So let's continue along the same vein and look further at the idea of doership.

We are only using the sense of seeing for this exercise.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:

Look to your right.
Then look to your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look to the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look to the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen? Is there a choice in what you see, in what you are aware of?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

Is there a chooser who chooses what is seen?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:48 pm

Hi Kay,

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen? Is there a choice in what you see, in what you are aware of?

No, I can't turn seeing off. There's no choice but to see what is seen.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

There's nothing I can do to stop seeing.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

I can't not see the black space. There's nothing I can do about it.

Can you turn off seeing?

I can't turn off seeing.

Is there a chooser who chooses what is seen?

There's no chooser who chooses what is seen. What's seen is seen.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I feel this question is pretty powerful. I'm aware of everything without choice so there isn't anything else to choose.


Thanks,

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:02 pm

Hi Allen,
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
I feel this question is pretty powerful. I'm aware of everything without choice so there isn't anything else to choose.
Yes, it’s a powerful question. There is no thinker of thought and no chooser or controller. Life simply happens. This is also true of when emotions arise. Can we choose whether or not any particular emotion (sensation + thought) arises? Can we choose what thoughts arise or how intense sensations are?

We can’t predict, nor can we choose not to have unpleasant or pleasant thoughts. Each time disturbing thoughts appear, really LOOK and check:

Did you make a particular thought appear?
Did you want that thought to appear in the first place?
Did you choose for that thought to appear?
Do you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?

Carrying on with looking at the idea of choice and a chooser, the aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Kay
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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:28 am

Hi Kay,

I've been pretty busy the last few days. I'll need to take some extra time to complete the exercise.

Thanks,

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:01 pm

Hi Kay,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities and preferences for the drinks appear by themselves. I can't find anything behind them that is generating them.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No, I didn't see any mental function that chose to shut down the preferences and start counting.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, I didn't see any mental function or experience something that did the choosing. Nothing arose that said "I am the chooser".

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

There's definitely an I feeling. But it isn't something that's alive and can choose. Its nature is not some kind of entity. This goes for thoughts about this feeling as well. The thoughts themselves are not some kind of entity that chooses things.


Thanks,

Allen

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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:45 pm

Hi Allen,
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No, I didn't see any mental function or experience something that did the choosing. Nothing arose that said "I am the chooser".
And let’s say that a thought appeared prior to choice saying “I want tea instead of coffee, so I choose to drink coffee”, or a thought appeared after the choice saying “I chose coffee”.

Can an I be found that is doing the choosing or is the “I” only found in the narrative itself?
Can an "I" be found ever, other than in the narrative itself?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
There's definitely an I feeling. But it isn't something that's alive and can choose. Its nature is not some kind of entity. This goes for thoughts about this feeling as well. The thoughts themselves are not some kind of entity that chooses things.
And is the feeling an actual sensation or is it an idea?

Okay, moving onto looking at the idea of the body now.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes and focus on the body until you become aware of the sensations labelled as ‘body’.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay
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Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby Allen12 » Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:56 pm

Hi Kay,

Can an I be found that is doing the choosing or is the “I” only found in the narrative itself?
Can an "I" be found ever, other than in the narrative itself?

An "I" is only found in the narrative, in thought content. There's nothing in experience that is an "I". Colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought, none of it is an "I".

There's definitely an I feeling. But it isn't something that's alive and can choose. Its nature is not some kind of entity. This goes for thoughts about this feeling as well. The thoughts themselves are not some kind of entity that chooses things.
And is the feeling an actual sensation or is it an idea?

It's an idea about a sensation. An idea that the sensation supposedly feels like an "I".

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, it can't be known.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

This can't be known from just sensations.

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, it's just sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

A boundary can't be known, there's only sensation.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There's only a sensation. A boundary isn't known. It can't be known that the body is sitting on a chair based on pure sensation.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

This isn't known either. There's just sensation.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The word/label "body" refers to thought content and the concept of a human body.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The actual experience of the body is just sensation.

Thanks,

Allen

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forgetmenot
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Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Inquiry with forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:21 am

Hi Allen,

Our internet is down and won't be up and running until tomorrow, so we have been informed by our ISP. I don't have enough phone data, or the inclination to try and respond via the phone,..I dislike using it at the best of times! So as soon as the internet is up, I will respond then...using my computer!

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.


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